How Brennan Wood Understands & Helps Kids out with Childhood Grief -12

We feel it is important to make our podcast transcripts available for accessibility. We use quality artificial intelligence tools to make it possible for us to provide this resource to our audience. We do have human eyes reviewing this, but they will rarely be 100% accurate. We appreciate your patience with the occasional errors you will find in our transcriptions. If you find an error in our transcription, or if you would like to use a quote, or verify what was said, please feel free to reach out to us at connect@37by27.com.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:00:02

Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real, honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW. And in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Morning. I'm often joined by two incredible guests, Dr. Marlis Beier and Dr. Dean Sharp, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:00:47

Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing. Let's walk through this journey together. Welcome back, everybody, to our next episode. I am just so thrilled. I mean, really, truly, I was just telling our guest that this is a bucket list career moment for me because she is such a special person in this world, and I just feel so honored that she's carved out time for us to do this together. We have Brennan Wood with us today, and she is the executive director of the Dougy Center here in Portland. Brennan, welcome.

Brennan Wood [: 00:01:20

Thank you so much for having me and for those kind words. That truly means so much to me.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:24

Oh my gosh. No. I'm a super fan. I've watched a video. I've read all about you. I know that this is such a gift to our audience to have you giving us this sort of, I don't know, one on one attention and description of how important and the type of work that the Dougy Center does and based on your own experience.

Brennan Wood [: 00:01:40

Yeah. Well, I'm so happy to share my own experience and to share what I've learned of from working at Dougy Center for over twenty years now.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:48

Oh my gosh. But you're only, what, like, 25? You look like you're 25. How can that be? Well, thank you.

Brennan Wood [: 00:01:54

Yes. Yes. I started when I was five.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:56

There we go. Good. It's been a long road. Right?

Brennan Wood [: 00:01:58

Exactly.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:59

So for our audience, we've got people all over the country. What would you want them to know about the Dougy Center?

Brennan Wood [: 00:02:04

So Dougy Center was the first of its kind in the country, and what we provide is grief support in a safe place for children and families before and after a death. So what that really means is that we bring families together based on their shared experience of having a family member either with an advanced serious illness or who has died.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:02:27

Wow. So I know that hospices sometimes do that. What makes you guys different than the typical hospice? Because I know, you know, I was a hospice social worker for a long time, and we would have to follow families for thirteen months after a death. What makes you guys different?

Brennan Wood [: 00:02:39

Absolutely. Well, first, let me say that I'm so grateful for what hospice does in this world, and I I think it's so important and we need more of it and much, much sooner for families. What I would say that we do differently is really we have a robust program for children, and we start as young as three. And I'm certain that there are some hospices that provide it a similar type of support, but what we have found is that really what we do is significantly different in that we start early, for the youngest reavers, and our program is ongoing. There's no beginning and no end. Kids and families can stay in our program as long as they need our services. Often, hospices provide, again, much needed and great support, but what we have found is it's often a a a six week program or an eight week program, and we believe that grief is longer than that.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:32

Wait. Are you saying grief lasts forever?

Brennan Wood [: 00:03:35

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:37

You. Yep. Hey. Yes. I think you're onto something there. I think I am. I love that because so often these resources, like you said, which are so important and valuable and all the things, but there is a limit to what they can provide because oftentimes they're doing 10 other things at minimum. And so to focus exclusively on grief is really hard.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:54

And the part about our culture is that we're fighting this idea that there's a start and an end to the grief process.

Brennan Wood [: 00:04:00

Absolutely. And as much as Elizabeth Kubler Ross's five stages of grief were so profound when she wrote them for people who were dying.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:04:09

Thank you for that. Thank you for that. I'm always the anal person.Like, you know that was for the people who are dying.

Brennan Wood [: 00:04:14

Right. I mean, that's what they were made for and ended for. That's what they are. What it has done, unfortunately, is in a lot of ways, a a disservice to those left behind in that there's this idea that we can check off five boxes and be done with grief when, really, grief is something that is a part of your fabric and your journey for the rest of your life when you experience profound loss.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:04:39

Yeah. I always tell people, and maybe as a listener, you've heard me say this before, but it's basically learning to live in this reality in the most meaningful way. And this reality has to include the wound, the loss, the grief. And in the most meaningful way means that some days, I'm not doing so hot. Other days, I'm thriving, and that's okay too because the most meaningful way is always evolving.

Brennan Wood [: 00:05:00

Absolutely. And I think in earlier loss, certainly, those moments can actually be as challenging as the harder moments because you feel like you shouldn't be thriving. You feel guilty. You feel like you should only be sad, but grief, it isn't singular. It isn't linear. It isn't this one pathway, this one experience. It's unfortunately or fortunately, you know, all over the place, and it's it's messy because being human is messy.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:05:29

It's true. It's true. And so I mean, the mission of Clear Mourning, my nonprofit, is to shift the culture of grief through support, innovation, and awareness. And I think we are in agreement that that starts with kids because that is the future of the culture. And so being able to tap into that population through this type of support must just, I mean, you must watch it evolve for them.

Brennan Wood [: 00:05:49

Absolutely. And it is amazing to see the positive impact that Dougy Center has on kids and families and certainly on me through my own experience. What I will also share, and I think it's critical that people know this because I do think that grief, especially early loss, is should be and is a public health priority right now for us as a country and really as a world. Kids who have a parent die in childhood have higher levels of things that we as a community, as a world, want to avoid. They do experience higher levels of anxiety, depression, substance misuse into adulthood. They have even been found to have earlier mortality rates than their non bereaved counterparts, and that's huge. Right? So a kid who has a parent die in childhood has statistically significant higher levels of all of those things that we want to avoid. So Dougy Center is really a preventative model for kids and families, and what we see in our outcomes is amazing and profound and really important.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:54

Wow. Tell us, what is your personal experience? How did you end up here?

Brennan Wood [: 00:06:57

Yeah. So my mom, Doris, died three days after my 12th birthday.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:07:02

I'm so sorry.

Brennan Wood [: 00:07:03

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. In my family, you know, we were a very young family. She was 36 when she died. My dad was 38. Oh my. It was 1987, and I was the youngest of her three children.

Brennan Wood [: 00:07:16

I have an older sister who was three years older than me, 15 when she died, and my brother was 17 when she died. And my parents did not have the tools to navigate her illness or her death. And being the youngest, that was just so challenging for me. It obviously had implications for all of us as siblings. I'm not trying to say that my road was harder by any stretch, but because I was younger, I was a little bit more just stuck in our home environment where my brother and sister could kind of more easily escape the chaos, which, of course, you know, for all of us, that has its ramifications. Right? And so luckily, I, kind of threw a temper tantrum, honestly. Sarah? Good for you.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:00

And Well, you were the winner of sadness in that time. Right?

Brennan Wood [: 00:08:04

Yes.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:05

We use a lot of humor on this podcast, Brennan.

Brennan Wood [: 00:08:07

Which is so important. I use a lot of humor all the time because

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:10

Tell us about your tantrum. Yeah.

Brennan Wood [: 00:08:12

So my dad really tried to kind of move quickly into the next relationship to fill the void or series of, you know, he he was really kind of on the out in the world trying to find something to fill that space for him. And that left me home a lot alone. And I remember one evening, he came home, and I was standing in the kitchen, and I just kinda let him have it. Mhmm. And he kept saying, you're fine. It's fine. You're going to be fine. And I remember just looking at him and saying, what if I'm not? Oh my gosh.

Brennan Wood [: 00:08:44

No. What are you gonna do about it? And he said, I heard about this place called the Dougy Center. I have no idea what they do, but do you wanna go? And I remember it clear as day. I mean, I remember where I was standing. I remember what he said. And I said, yes. You know, that yes. Ended up at the Dougy Center a short time later.

Brennan Wood [: 00:09:03

And not only for me, you know, the impact of being with other kids who had also had a parent die was huge. At school, I was the only kid that I knew of that was in that experience. Obviously, I had a range of responses and some friends really there were few friends that were great, a lot of friends really weren't. And, also, the adults in my life really wanted to take my pain away, and I understand that. That's a normal response to wanna help a kid. But what they didn't understand is that, you know, in trying to take my pain away, that was actually really invalidating my experience and my grief and pushing me to move on when really what I needed to do was experience it and feel it. And so, luckily, I got to go to the Dougy Center where I was surrounded by kids, but also adults who held the space for that. And there wasn't pressure to forget or move on or be anywhere other than where I was, and that, for me, was everything.

Brennan Wood [: 00:10:01

It changed everything for me. I say this often, but, truly, my experience at the Dougy Center, I believe, was was life changing, life saving. I might still be alive. It would look entirely different if I hadn't gone there. And for me, learning kind of that those the tools that I learned, but also that idea that this is a natural, normal, healthy process. And when hard things happen, we can go through them. And also when hard things happen, we're not alone. Right? So for me, that was everything.

Brennan Wood [: 00:10:31

When I decided it was time to close from the program, because that's up to kids and teens and even, you know, young adults. And then we also provide support for the adult caregiver. When the family decides it's time to close, we do kind of a closing ritual. And then for me, I knew my time at Dougy Center wasn't over, so I went back and began I went through the volunteer training and began volunteering and volunteered until I was about 19, and I decided to leave Portland. I was gone for about a decade, and then I moved back over twenty years ago, almost twenty one years ago, to work at the Dougy Center.

Brennan Wood [: 00:11:05

They didn't know it yet, but that is why I moved back to Portland.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:11:09

NARS came together. Yes. We were back here for this.

Brennan Wood [: 00:11:11

Yeah. And about two weeks after I came back, a friend called me, kind of screaming into the phone, the Dougy Center's hiring. Oh my god.

Brennan Wood [: 00:11:19

And so it all just really worked out, and I've been on staff for twenty years and executive director for almost ten.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:11:26

That's amazing. Yeah. It's just so incredible. What a mission in life.

Brennan Wood [: 00:11:29

Yeah. Thank you.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:11:30

Okay. So I have this feeling sometimes. I don't know. Maybe you do. Like, I'm like, oh, I'm doing all this great work. I've got this podcast. I love it so much. I'm teaching these workshops.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:11:37

It feels so good. And then I pause, and I'm like, how the hell is this my life? Yes. You know, the only reason all of these things are like this is because I've suffered tremendous loss. Damn it. Do you ever have those moments? Absolutely. Absolutely. Weird thing. It didn't make me hold both.

Brennan Wood [: 00:11:52

Oh, it's such a weird thing. And I think what you just said, holding both is so true. Right? Like, we hold multiple things at once, and sometimes they're diametric opposites, and they all are true at the same time. Right? And I think that for me, this is how this path, this journey is because my mother lived, but it's also because my mother died. And both of those things are true and hard and beautiful and all the things. Right? And so it's wild. I do have those moments often where I'm like, wow.

Brennan Wood [: 00:12:22

It's a journey.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:22

Like, maybe at the TEDx talk, did you have a moment up there?

Brennan Wood [: 00:12:26

Yeah. That is a pretty wild full circle thing, and, certainly, you know, I mean, some of the things that I've even said so far resonate with what I shared during that talk.

Brennan Wood [: 00:12:35

But, yeah, it is truly wild to be in a space to share so publicly about something that's so personal, but so important to share so that others know that they're not alone. Totally. It's so important. And the same reason you're doing this podcast and the work that you do. Right? It's just it's so important that others see the other I don't wanna say the other side of it because I don't think there's, like, another side of it. But one of the analogies that I often use is, like, when you're first grieving, you're kind of in the ocean in the storm. Right? And waves are crashing over you, and it's happening all the time, all at once, and sometimes you feel like you can barely come up for air. And for me, over time, the storm has lessened, and I learned how to swim with the current.

Brennan Wood [: 00:13:20

And then it's like over time, you're on the shore. Right? And then waves are still lapping at your ankles, and you still feel them, and you still know it's there. And every once in a while, there's that sneaker wave that comes out of nowhere, and you say, gosh. Why am I crying missing my mom thirty seven years later? Right? But my thing is, like, I wanna be the person standing on the shore holding the lantern.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:13:41

Oh, and girl, we are cut from the same cloth. Like, I use that analogy all the time.

Brennan Wood [: 00:13:45

Oh, you really?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:13:45

Oh my gosh. I'm like, you know, the first part of grief, it's like you've all seen everybody get in the ocean for the first time, and you watch them lose their swimsuit and a face full of sand, and they don't know which way is up, and they're totally panicked, and they think they might die. And then over time, you learn that the waves come in sets and that you can actually turn to the side. You can actually dip under if it's not the right time. You can stay on the shore altogether. Yeah. We use the same stuff. Wow.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:10

Oh my gosh. That's a good thing. Too.

Brennan Wood [: 00:14:15

Well, I feel like there's so many people in this life that we learn from.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:18

No. It's true. Yeah. And that was the only way that I could ever really ex to say to offer hope that's not like, don't worry. Right. You're gonna be okay. Right. But that you will learn how to be in this relationship.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:28

I'm always like, grief is the relationship you now have with the person. Yeah. And, like, any new relationship, even though I know it's not new and it's not the one you want Right. For lack of a better way to describe it, any new relationship takes investigation, intention Yeah. And boundaries. Absolutely. Like, I can't do this today. I'm dipping under the wave.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:45

Yeah. I can't do this today I love that. Because all these other parts of my life are calling me or because for whatever reason. You know? And Yeah. I know in the beginning, those choices don't feel available ever.

Brennan Wood [: 00:14:56

Absolutely.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:57

Yeah. But if we can let grievers know that those choices might be marching toward them, I always say, like, if what I'm saying makes you wanna punch me in the face, that's okay. Yeah. I just want you to hear it.

Brennan Wood [: 00:15:08

Yeah. Absolutely. And I do think what you said about the relationship aspect of things is so important because one of the things that I think our culture does in this idea that we have to move on and forget and just, like, march forward so quickly is that what we're forgetting about is the relationship. We are still in relationship with the people who died. The relationship has changed. Right? But my mom is truly the only biological mom I'm ever gonna have, and I get to have a relationship with her. I get to keep that.

Brennan Wood [: 00:15:39

No one gets to say to me, you have to cut that off. Why? What about that feels better for society than maintaining connection, maintaining relationship, thinking about my mom? I get to do all of that. I get to carry her with me. And to me, that is just such a healthier, softer, more gentle way to live than telling people that they just need to forget and move on.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:16:03

I mean, I just cringe at those generations where the pictures weren't even allowed in the house, and you were not to speak their name. And I know that there are cultures now who still subscribe to that sort of philosophy. Right. And I'm not trying to diss anybody's culture. I'm saying for me and the way that I grieved and have watched and helped people grieve to live in a place where you were not allowed to speak the person's name would feel so terrible. Like, I just think it would complicate the process so profoundly.

Brennan Wood [: 00:16:29

Yeah. And I do honor I truly believe that there is no right or wrong way to grieve as long as people are staying safe and keeping those around them safe. Right? Yep. Yep. Then there's no right or wrong way to grieve. So I certainly don't want to. I'm with you on that. However, I do think that there is this idea that forcing that on other people, including children, right, is not the best way.

Brennan Wood [: 00:16:52

Giving kids options, giving people options on how they want to engage with their grief and with others and honor the person in their life or the people in their life who are gone is so important.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:17:04

Yeah. And how do you guys navigate it when I think this probably comes up a lot. I know it did in my house. My son didn't want to engage in his grief process some of the time because he knew it would upset me.

Brennan Wood [: 00:17:14

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:17:15

He was trying to protect me and trying to protect this person. You know, his therapist recently said to me, my god, Sarah. All this kid has done is shape shift to keep people okay Yeah. Because that's all he's known. I mean, he was seven when my daughter died, so he has just continually shape shifted himself to take care of other people. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that we could have done it differently so that didn't happen for him. But I do see this unfolding for youth a lot where they withhold their own in their safest environment because they don't wanna upset their adult caregiver.

Brennan Wood [: 00:17:43

Absolutely. It does happen all the time. And, of course, I think there's things that adults can do to try to help that, but, ultimately, that does happen. And I think, for me, what I go back to is, I think that's one of the most powerful things about peer support. Because at Dougy Center and there are many programs based on the Dougy Center model, inspired by the Dougy Center model across the country and around the world. There's a National Alliance for Children's Grief, and if people can't find a program based on the Dougy Center model in their area, there's also summer camps that are grief summer camps. And I think what is so important about that is that kids get to go into those environments and their person who brings them, right, whether that's a surviving parent, whether that's a parent who, you know, also had a child die, if it's their sibling, that parent gets support also. And they're in another location at Dougy Center, so we have an adult talking room.

Brennan Wood [: 00:18:35

We have multiple adult talking rooms where the adults get to go and provide support to one another. And then the kids are with other kids. So a typical group at Dougy Center is about 15 kids who are divided by age and who died and often even how they died to give kids that sense of normalcy that they aren't the only kid in the world that this has happened to. And then they're run by a Dougy Center staff person who has at least a master's level education. And then there's a lot of adult volunteers. So there's this real safe container to express all of those things that they maybe can't express it or won't. Right?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:19:09

So what I hear you saying is that this withdrawal of emotional release from kids is probably pretty normal Absolutely. In the home environment for various reasons. And so as a parent, as an adult caregiver, somebody who cares for this kid, to find those outlets where they can release or just be or simply understand that they're not alone is everything.

Brennan Wood [: 00:19:28

Absolutely. I think that that is everything, and I think that that is something that we can strive to provide for kids, but also for one another in community. And I think for me, that was critical. And I know a lot of folks seek out therapy, and I am not anti therapy. In fact, I'm a huge proponent of therapy. But I think often what's missing from therapy for children and families who are grieving is just that that pure support, that understanding that there are other kids going through this. And, also, I think really grounding in the fact that grief is a natural, normal, healthy response to loss. Right.

Brennan Wood [: 00:20:03

That we are human, and therefore, we grieve. It is not mental illness. There is nothing wrong with you if you are grieving. I speak of this in my TED Talk, but I believe that we are in a time when many are trying to pathologize grief because I think it's easier to think that there's a fix, that there's a cure, that you can move on from it in a certain time frame. I think that that can be an easier way to think about it, but the reality is that grief is this human experience. Mhmm. And it isn't this clearly delineated time frame. Right? Right.

Brennan Wood [: 00:20:34

And so I think that getting kids support around that is critical.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:20:39

Yeah. What do you think the DSM prolong grief disorder diagnosis?

Brennan Wood [: 00:20:43

What I would say is that I think that first of all, I I just I'm what I would say.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:20:49

Alright. She took a deep breath, everybody. Get ready. Something big's coming.

Brennan Wood [: 00:20:53

Oh, I think it's very unfortunate because kids can be diagnosed with prolonged grief disorder if they are still yearning for their parent who died just six months after their death. I mean, that's insane. And six months is nothing. Nothing. Six months is nothing. And if a kid isn't yearning for their parent who died six months after their death, I feel like there are things to look at there. Yeah. Right? And so I think it's very unfortunate to give mental health professionals the idea that grief is mental illness.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:21:24

Yeah. That it's a disorder.

Brennan Wood [: 00:21:26

Yes. Yeah. And up until this edition of the DSM, that wasn't the case. And there was this understanding that grief is what it is, that it is this all encompassing intense experience. And so I do think it's really unfortunate. I understand that there are people who say that it's important to be able to bill insurance and all of that, and I think that there are ways that we have done that for many, many, many years Since the beginning of the whole insurance business. Yep. Since the beginning, there's ways we've done it differently, and I don't think it is a helpful thing in our society to start putting out there that grief is an illness to be cured.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:22:07

Yeah. I agree. Couldn't agree more. It's not a disorder. It's a response to a tragedy Yes. In somebody's life.

Brennan Wood [: 00:22:13

Yes. Yeah. I have said to many folks, like, there's nothing wrong with what you're experiencing. There's something wrong with what happened. Right. Right? Something terrible happened, and you're having a normal response to it. Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:22:26

And going back a little bit, Brennan, do you remember as a 12 year old feeling guilty for laughing and that sort of thing, like, as we talked about a little while ago?

Brennan Wood [: 00:22:32

Yeah. I think that for me, everything was just so out of sorts. And I felt this pressure to, like, do everything right, which meant also laughing. You know, like, I felt this pressure to just be, quote, unquote, normal.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:22:49

To be back to normal.

Brennan Wood [: 00:22:49

To be back to normal as quickly as possible. And so I don't know that I remember distinctly thinking, oh, I shouldn't laugh or I shouldn't have fun, but probably not too much fun, probably not too much laughter. Like, I felt very like, I had to do it the right way, and I had to perform for all of the people around me.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:23:07

Oh my god. You must have been so tired.

Brennan Wood [: 00:23:09

I definitely was. I mean, when I went back to school two weeks my mom died two weeks before school started. And so I started school seventh grade right on time. I ended up being the seventh grade I think it was the vice president or whatever the seventh grader was for the student council. And, you know, I did all these things to just, like, make sure that I did everything right. And then it was really Dougy Center that allowed me to share the real of what I was experiencing and going through. That's amazing. That saved me.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:23:38

You know, I run a grief camp courage, and before I took it over, one of our local hospices ran it for years. And so after the loss of my daughter and my dad, my son went to the camp. And he went to mountain bike camp, and he went to sleepaway fun camp. And at the end of the last few summers that he was there, he's like, no. My favorite is Camp Courage. And I'm like, wow. That says a lot that grief camp is your favorite. I said, why? He goes, just like what you said, it's the only time in the year that I'm not the weirdo who lost his sister.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:24:07

Yes. And for him to be able to set that story down for the three and a half days or whatever it was, that's it. Yeah. That's what he needed. I don't think take away these incredible tools for coping and stress management and moving through Elizabeth Kubler Ross' phase stages of grief. I think he felt community. And to know that there is community sometimes is the most transformative thing.

Brennan Wood [: 00:24:29

Absolutely. I was talking to a little boy at the Dougy Center, and his family had agreed to be, you know, kind of a family that we shared their story publicly. Obviously, we honor confidentiality, but this family wanted to share their story so that people could know about the impact of Dougy Center. And I was speaking to him, he was 10 at the time, and he was incredibly articulate. And I asked him, I said, why Dougy Center? You play sports, you have friends, you've shared all that with me. You've been coming for a couple years, and why do you keep coming back? And he said he thought about it. He was just so thoughtful, and he looked at me and he said, you know, when I'm with my friends and I'm on playing sports on whatever team I'm on, I don't know which of my friends knows that my dad died.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:07

Mhmm.

Brennan Wood [: 00:25:07

I don't know which of my friends knows how he died, which was a pretty traumatic experience. And so I just always feel a little awkward, and that was the word he used. I just always feel awkward. And he said, but I come to Dougy Center, and I get to just hang out with friends and play basketball and shoot hoops and do art and anything else I feel like doing. And while I'm here, I know that all the kids I'm hanging out with know that my dad died, and I know they know how he died, and they've all had somebody die. And so for that time, I don't have to feel awkward. I just feel normal. What a gift.

Brennan Wood [: 00:25:39

Yeah. And I thought to myself, you know, if that's all we do, and I know we do more than that, which is wonderful, but if that's all we do for kids, if twice a month for an hour and a half, they get to come to a place where they feel normal, that's amazing.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:52

That's amazing. That's amazing. Because what that does is it cultivates that part of their brain that says, hey, this is possible for me. Mhmm. This is possible for me. In a time when it's really easy to think that very few things are possible.

Brennan Wood [: 00:26:03

Absolutely. I had a teen say to me one time, going back to the idea of laughter, she said to me that her first Dougy Center group, what the most profound experience was for her was that she learned that she would laugh again and that her family would laugh again. Oh. Because she walked in the doors of Dougy Center and she heard laughter. And she was like, what is this? Like, she was not expecting that. And she was in her team group and everyone was laughing. And she said she just sat there and she was so happy to learn that she would laugh again.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:33

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:34

Well and, I mean, just even as adults, I'll have a lot of grievers, especially bereaved parents come in and be clients of mine. And sometimes I think they're just clocking me the whole time to see if I act normal. Like, is this possible for me? Am I ever gonna get to that place? And I don't know if they will get to where I am, but everybody's path is different. It's what I'm saying. But I do think there's this sense of, okay. She smiled. She talked. She's dressed.

Brennan Wood [: 00:26:59

Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:59

She's back to work. Maybe this is possible for me. And even in the darkest days at the beginning when you really don't think that's true, like I say on the podcast here is, like, just hear it Yeah. Or just see it. Yeah. Just know that that's out there somewhere.

Brennan Wood [: 00:27:12

At Dougy Center, the groups are set up where there's no beginning and no end to the group. So I mentioned that a six week program is ongoing. But because of that, new kids join the group as kids leave the group. So you'll have a group of kids where some of them have been coming for two years, some a year, some six months, and some are are very new to Dougy Center and often very new to having had somebody in their family die. And what is amazing then is that kids then end up being the helpers to one another, and that is just so profound. One of my kind of all time favorite Doug Eisner stories was a little boy came in when he was three, and his dad had died. And we always give kids the opportunity to share their story, their name, their age, who died, and how they died at every group. And, actually, that's kids, teens, young adults, and adult family members as well.

Brennan Wood [: 00:28:01

Right? We all have the option to share our story every time during opening circle. And this three year old boy, it was his first time, and he said his name and his age, and he burst into tears. And he said, and my dad died, and I want him to come back. And one of the most beautiful, powerful things about a peer support group is that a four year old boy across the room sat up and looked at him and said, when daddy's died, they don't come back. And he looked he, you know, kind of shocked and looked at this boy, and he said, but, you know, I I I want him to come back. And he was crying. And the four year old stood up, walked across the room, sat down next to him, put his arm around him, and said, I know. I know.

Brennan Wood [: 00:28:38

Because my daddy died too. But when daddy's died, they don't come back. And they sat there and cried together.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:28:43

Oh, my gosh.

Brennan Wood [: 00:28:44

And what I love about that story I mean, there's so many things I don't like about that story. Right? But what I do love about that story is that, you know, if an adult had said that to that three year old boy, it almost sounds scolding. Right. It almost sounds like they've done something wrong, you know, while when daddy's died, they don't come back. But instead, this four year old was able to offer that to his peer and really mentor him in his grief, right, as just as a peer, and they had that experience together. And how profound is that?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:29:14

It's amazing. And I think it also touches on something you said earlier about just how, I'll use the word advanced, grieving kids must be pushed to this advanced level of thinking and regulation and emotional synthesizing and all of the things that most kids without loss get to just sort of be oblivious to. Yes. I mean, for a four year old to come up with that, are you kidding me? It's just so clear. And so how as adults can we also remember that? Like, these are not your average kids who are out thinking about average things. They have been thrusted into an experience that is well beyond their years.

Brennan Wood [: 00:29:47

Absolutely. Yes. For sure.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:29:48

Give them the break to also then be like, and they don't have the cognitive tools to deal with all of this. How can we help them? And I think that your philosophy of this peer support is probably the primary and best way to do that. I think it is, and I'm with other kids.

Brennan Wood [: 00:30:01

Yeah. I think it's so powerful. And, of course, there are other tools and resources in the world and fully support those, but I just think the power of peer support, we have been able to really validate our model and validate what we're doing and show that it does beautiful things like increase hopefulness and self worth and perceived problems become easier and more bearable, right, for participants. So it really does it's, you know, it's a preventative model that really helps kids and families.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:30:31

Yeah. And I do think it's translatable to adults. Oh, 100%. Adults I talk about this a lot where it's like, okay. Kobe Bryant dies. Tragic, sad, people pour into the streets to openly grieve. Why? Because there's a social permission to actually have a feeling. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:30:47

But their loved one, their mother, their father, their whoever that they love and adore dies, and they're, like, stuck behind closed doors, not allowed to talk about it. Five days bereavement, you're done. Absolutely. And it's insane Yes. That it takes something like that, grieving somebody you've never met Yeah. To feel permission to find that peer, that community grief support. Like, actually, there's millions and millions of people who you could connect with Absolutely. Community like this, and it eases the way.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:31:11

It softens the edges.

Brennan Wood [: 00:31:12

Yeah. That is so interesting. I think one of the things about our program that's interesting is so we provide support for three to 18. And with each of those support groups, there is an adult support group that happens simultaneously so that the adult who brings them gets peer support at the same time. And we also have a young adult program for 18 to 25 and then 26 to 40. And so we really provide support to all ages except 40 and over that don't have a child in the program, and that's where we also lean on our hospice programs in the area to refer folks to. But one of the powerful, powerful parts of our program is the adult support. And I think that, certainly, we focus on the kids, and the kids are the entry into the program.

Brennan Wood [: 00:31:54

But it's really interesting because we do have kids who say, well, I think I'm ready to close from Dougy Center, but I know that my mom isn't or I know that my dad isn't. Right? And so they keep coming because they want their parent to get the support that they're getting upstairs. My gosh. I love that. Which I think is so powerful.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:32:11

That is so powerful. Oh, gosh. I love what you guys do. So one question I had is, do you wish or is there something out there where we could help? Like, on my website, I have the grief companion manual. I hope that I can give this to supporters because the other part about grief is that most of the people in the world supporting grievers don't have really much of an idea. Yeah. And I always say there's something different between choosing to do nothing and not knowing what to do. And if you don't know what to do, that's okay.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:32:38

Learn. Try things out. And a lot of the things that I teach and work through are ways in which supporters can investigate how they can provide the most meaningful support. But how do we do that for kids and their peers?

Brennan Wood [: 00:32:49

Yeah. So well, I mean, I think it starts with all of us. Right? And I think, really, one of the things that Dougy Center is a huge proponent of, and we have actually a campaign around. Right? Like a movement.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:33:00

Are you guys having a movement? Yeah. I wanna I wanna get to start a movement.

Brennan Wood [: 00:33:03

We are. Good. We are. And it's the hashtag is understand grief.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:33:07

Okay.

Brennan Wood [: 00:33:07

It's hashtag understand grief. Hashtag understand grief. And it's all based around our platform called Becoming Grief Informed, and it's actually a call to action. It's a pretty dense paper, and it is kind of a 40 page call to action, which definitely, I think, is geared a little bit more towards professionals, but we have other resources within that campaign for folks who aren't necessarily professionals providing mental health support. And it's based on the 10 core principles of grief informed practice. And I think that there are ways that we can help so many people become grief informed. And as a society, I think we've talked out quite a bit about being trauma informed, and I think people often know what it means or closer to know what it means to be trauma informed and not necessarily know what it means to be grief informed. And wouldn't it be a beautiful thing if everyone in a child's life was grief informed, if their teacher was, if their school counselor was, if their coach of their baseball team was, right, if their youth pastor was, whoever these adults are that are around kids in their life, if all of us were grief informed and knew how to support and navigate kids and families who were grieving, wouldn't that be a beautiful thing? Because the reality is in The United States right now, one in twelve kids will have a parent or a sibling die before they turn 18.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:34:30

Oh my god.

Brennan Wood [: 00:34:31

And if you think about that percentage, that is why it is truly in a public health situation in our country that we really need people to become grief informed. Yeah. So I would encourage everyone to check out all of our resources.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:34:44

Absolutely. And imagine if we could set it up so that schools a child in a classroom suffers a loss and that the next day, they take twenty minutes to do a snip snapshot of grief informed care. Like, here's what we're gonna say to Johnny. Here's what we're just not gonna say to Johnny. And if you don't know what to say, say nothing. Right? I mean, we could do something so simple as that and give these kids the tools to support their little

Brennan Wood [: 00:35:08

Absolutely. And give the teachers the tools. Right?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:11

Give the teachers the tools.

Brennan Wood [: 00:35:12

I think that teachers obviously are they're incredible humans who want to support kids and often just don't know. I saw something on social media the other day of a kid whose mom is a grief therapist who said, oh my gosh, mom. You know, they're teaching the five stages of grief in class right now, and I don't know what to say because I know it's wrong. But, you know, and they ended up, I think, emailing the teacher and providing additional resources. But, you know, I think teachers are well intended, and all people who are trying to work with and support and help kids are well intended. So let's get them the tools they need too to have those conversations with kids.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:48

Yeah. I mean, even the people who say everything happens for a reason are well intended.

Brennan Wood [: 00:35:52

Absolutely. They are. They are. It doesn't help. Don't say that.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:55

No. Do not. Always silver lining or there's something to be learned here or even the people who say to me, oh, it's so hard, but look at all you've done. And it's like, oh, please stop. Yeah. I would cash it in, believe it or not, to have my whole life back.

Brennan Wood [: 00:36:05

Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Anything that you're putting out into the world to try to diminish pain in the moment is really not helpful. It's what's really helpful is to validate that pain. And sometimes that's just through silence. Exactly. Sometimes that's just in holding the space and saying, yeah.

Brennan Wood [: 00:36:26

It really sucks. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:36:27

And I'm here, and I'm not turning away. Yeah. And you can do whatever you're gonna do, and I'm just gonna be right here.

Brennan Wood [: 00:36:31

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:36:31

On one of the first, like, Marley died in September and October. I would just, like, walk the streets all night. I had broken ribs, and I'm kinda, like, hobbling along. And it's cold and rainy, and you're just like, I don't even feel what's happening around me. And, I mean, it was early. Six something in the morning, and this woman goes, Sarah? Sarah? And I look, and it was a former grief counselor who I worked with for years and years. And she of all people, and god bless her, she was being honest, said, I didn't know what to say. Oh, I can't believe I haven't reached out.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:36:58

I just didn't know what to say. And I thought, we're in real trouble. Yes. Yeah. And this lovely woman who knows me, wants the best for me, has experience, has walked this path, didn't know what to say. Yeah. I mean, stopped.

Brennan Wood [: 00:37:11

Well and I think one of the things that I say to people is if you don't know what to say, say that. Right. But say it right when you would say something else. Right? So you don't know what to say, and it is six hours, six days, six weeks, six months later. Yeah. It's perfectly okay to say in that moment, I don't know what to say, but I am here and I care.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:37:33

Yeah. People really do feel like they need to know what to say. I bet especially to kids Yes. Because it's really scary to tell a kid, I don't know. Mhmm. I mean, for a lot of people about most things, your kids come into you with the, I want the answer. Yeah. And that's our work condition to try and give the answer, give the solution, and to just say, I don't know.

Brennan Wood [: 00:37:50

It is so hard.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:37:52

But I think kids might find more comfort in that versus, no. Do it this way, and that I can't. So now what's wrong with me? Right?

Brennan Wood [: 00:37:58

No. Absolutely. I mean, I think I don't know is a really reasonable response to a kid, especially because what we really encourage people is to always tell kids the truth.

Brennan Wood [: 00:38:07

Right? And so to answer their questions openly and honestly, and obviously at an age appropriate level. But, certainly, I don't know the answer to that is an okay question as long as it's the truth. Right? Like, speak the truth. And also, I think one of the challenges of supporting kids and teens that are grieving is they are so different, and some kids are gonna wanna talk about it more, and some kids aren't. And I also think it's okay to check-in with kids about that. Right? Like, what feels best to you? If you're a parent and you want to help your kid navigate school, for example, what, you know, what do you want your friends and teachers to know? How do we navigate this together? Right? And I think that there are ways to support kids in their own autonomy, which I think so often we forget that kids are smart. They often know the truth even if we haven't told them. They've picked up on things.

Brennan Wood [: 00:38:59

You know, we've had kids in our program who, you know, we really encourage families to tell kids the truth. But at times over the years when that hasn't happened you know, we've had a kid in our program one time who said his father died of carbon monoxide poisoning in the car, and he said, my dad died because he killed himself, but don't tell my mom she thinks it was a car accident.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:39:21

Oh my gosh. Right? Weight of the world. Yeah. Weight of the world. Yep.

Brennan Wood [: 00:39:25

Yeah. So let's do it differently.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:39:27

Let's do it differently. And so, you know, I think one thing I hear, I can only imagine you guys hear it all the time, is I don't know if my kid's grieving right. He won't, she won't. They won't talk about it with me. They're just marching on with their life. I'm worried they're not processing this. Mhmm. How do I know if they're processing this? And, I mean, I know you're not a clinician, Brennan, but, like, do you guys have a approach for, here's when we know we're sliding into dangerous territory outside of the obvious, you know, self harm, suicidal ideations, that type of thing? What else could parents be looking for to say, okay.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:39:55

This is off the bell shaped curve. This is not their unique grief experience.

Brennan Wood [: 00:39:59

Sure. Yeah. And thank you for acknowledging. I'm not a clinician. I'm a griever, and I'm an administrator, and I do a lot of wonderful things with my hair. Well, no. Thank you. But we have an incredible program team that does the more you know, those aspects of Dougy Center.

Brennan Wood [: 00:40:14

And what I would also say is that, you know, we answer over 25,000 calls a year Oh my gosh. And, from folks who just have questions. And so, certainly, we are available for those questions. Right? If a parent has questions, please reach out to Dougy Center. That's what we're here for. But what I would say is that I think one of the things I would encourage parents to realize is that your kids don't have to be seemingly struggling in order to get them support. Right? So great example is peer support or camps. Right? I think camps are great too.

Brennan Wood [: 00:40:45

Your son ended up Camp Courage was his favorite camp, and that says something even if maybe you didn't think he needed it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:40:52

Right? He wasn't hiding under the covers every day.

Brennan Wood [: 00:40:54

Exactly. Yeah. Right? And so I would encourage parents to seek out peer support in any way, even if you don't think your kids are struggling. Certainly, there are times when kids struggle and you don't know, and that's important, and we know that. And so how do we keep an eye on things? And also, you know, I think open communication is so important, but kids sometimes aren't gonna communicate about things. So getting supports and resources in place, we have a ton of resources, free resources on our website for parents, tip sheets, our podcast, which Grief Out Loud, which is a great resource, and your podcast. And then what I would also say is, you know, what you want to, of course, keep an eye on is the kids that aren't engaging in their life ever because kids do dip in and out of grief. That is a really normal thing.

Brennan Wood [: 00:41:43

So you might see a kid one day who's really grieving and very outwardly having grief reactions and then seemingly fine the next day. And it doesn't necessarily mean they're not grieving or they're not thinking about it. It's just normal for kids to kind of dip in and out. And so if you're seeing struggles all day, every day, certainly, that is a time when I would encourage folks to reach out to someone who can provide support. And if you do reach out to a therapist, I would certainly ensure that they're grief informed. I love that.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:42:15

Yeah. Exactly. And it kinda brings us back to the other point, which is oftentimes kids aren't gonna share these vulnerabilities around their grief experience with a parent or adult caregiver who shares the same loss Yes. Out of fear of upsetting the parent Right. Or adult caregiver. So getting them in front of people who they need not be so afraid. Yeah. Upsetting. Yeah. That that's not part of the equation.

Brennan Wood [: 00:42:35

Yeah. I think it's probably pretty key. Absolutely. I think that's super key. And if you can't come up with with that, then I also think, you know, there's kids that maybe sports are an outlet, and there can be coaches that, kind of play that role of somebody who can be a listening ear or just keep an eye on things. Music, creativity, art, there's so many ways that kids express themselves. Kids often use other tools as their language in addition to talking.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:43:04

And so might not be putting those pieces together in their young minds necessarily. We just have to trust that process is occurring. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Brennan and I had this beautiful outline. I just wonder, Brennan, did we did we didn't look at it once.

Brennan Wood [: 00:43:17

We did not.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:43:19

Okay. I think we did a good job. But, you know, one of the most exciting things I would think for you, this is projection, is that you had that TEDx experience. Was it so cool?

Brennan Wood [: 00:43:27

Oh, it was such an honor to be asked. It was so cool to be process leading

Sarah Peterson [: 00:43:32

up to amazing?

Brennan Wood [: 00:43:34

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I worked with an amazing coach and getting to share different aspects of my story than I typically do. You know, I share my story a lot and getting to share a few different aspects and to also really talk about grief and, you know, some of the things we've already talked about, grief being a lifelong journey, and that grief is not just this singular emotional experience. It is really a physical, behavioral, spiritual, cognitive experience. It's all things. And getting to talk about that to a larger audience is awesome. And do you get nervous speaking in front of larger audiences?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:44:08

Yes.

Brennan Wood [: 00:44:11

I think the Keller Auditorium is nerve racking for any I would think it's nerve racking for anybody.

Brennan Wood [: 00:44:16

Maybe the most seasoned performers. But, yeah. No. It's pretty Your blood's gonna be pumping.

Brennan Wood [: 00:44:22

Filled and intense, and Yes. Absolutely. But also, what an opportunity to share a message of grief, being transformative, and hard, and hopeful, and, you know, so many different things than maybe the predominant narrative that's happening out in the world.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:44:39

Yeah. And if we hold all the people who heard you that day and they could only recall one main takeaway, what would you hope that would be?

Brennan Wood [: 00:44:46

So TED is based on the concept of ideas worth spreading. And so my idea is grief is to feel, not fix. Mhmm. And so what I hope is people take that away that for themselves and others that the goal isn't to fix it. Mhmm. You know, the goal is to feel it, experience it, journey with it. And if you're able, create meaning for yourself. I think that's not a prescription we can give to others, but I think I've seen so many beautiful ways people have created meaning out of their loss, including I mean, look at this.

Brennan Wood [: 00:45:20

Right? We're sitting here, and Right. You've created meaning out of your loss and grief experiences and are sharing that with the world. Now it doesn't make it okay. Right? It doesn't Right. Mean that we wouldn't change it all in a heartbeat. But if it has to be this way, what a wonderful thing to be able for ourselves to create.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:45:39

Yeah. One of the things I teach a lot is how we can define healing in measurable outcomes that work for us. Yes. Because the last thing I want is to compare my grief process to yours or yours to mine. And unless you're out there doing a podcast and on the stage at Keller, then you're not doing enough. Right. And I think that's where you were going with we can't prescribe the meaning for other people. Right.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:45:58

But what does it mean to, like, sort of dissect that and say, like, I can still have meaning in my day

Brennan Wood [: 00:46:03

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:46:03

And my most meaningful life is just the life that I'm not surrendering to only sadness Yeah. That I'm integrating this experience into how I live my life. I mean, that's the ticket. And Yes. For you, for me, it looks like this. And for other people, it means that they don't lose their job or that they continue to be parents to their living children or that they have a meltdown with their parent that says, I need help. I need more. You know? Those are all very meaningful ways of living with your reality.

Brennan Wood [: 00:46:27

Absolutely. 100%. And, again, it's so different for each person and honoring that. And your differences, that does not mean that you're doing it wrong. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:46:37

Oh my gosh, Brennan. Thank you so much. I could sit here and talk to you in your beautiful home all day long. But you've got things to do, places to go, a busy day, and I just can't thank you enough for carving this time out for us.

Brennan Wood [: 00:46:48

Oh, I've been more than happy to do it. It's wonderful to talk with you, and I just always hope that my story can help somebody just a little bit.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:46:56

Yeah. Oh, you helped me today. That's for sure. So mission accomplished. Check out the Dougy Center, d o u g y center out of Portland. They've got a ton of resources, a ton of ways that you can get support, ideas, connections in your own community. Obviously, check us out at clearmorning.org, and we will talk to you guys next time. Thanks, Brennan.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:47:16

Thank you. Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.