Episode 8
Competitive Grief: How to Offer Genuine Support Without Judgement -8
In Episode 8 of Enduring Grief, hosts Sarah Peterson, Dr. Marlis Beier, and Dr. Dean Sharpe tackle the concept of "competitive grief" and the hierarchy of loss. How does one measure their grief against another? Should they even try? With poignant personal anecdotes, the hosts explore the importance of empathy, compassion, and understanding that grief is a deeply personal journey. From the challenges of maintaining perspective to the pitfalls of comparison, this episode offers insights into navigating grief authentically and without judgment. Listen as the hosts emphasize the concept that "Grief is Love," and share their pathways toward acceptance and support. If you've ever struggled to balance your grief with that of others, this episode offers a roadmap to compassionate mourning.
Dean Sharpe trained as a general surgeon and worked in private practice from 1980 to2002. His interests expanded and in 1994 he earned a master’s degree in health administration, becoming the first Vice President of Medical Affairs at St. Charles Medical Center. He shared this position with his surgical practice until 2002 when he became a full-time administrator. Informatics and computerized medical records arrived, and he facilitated that change at St. Charles from 2004 to 2006 as VP Clinical Informatics. In his two administrative jobs, relationship and change facilitation were his major roles.
His passion as facilitator and educator led to helping design and facilitate “People Centered Teams”, an organizational and personal seminar beginning 1992. The program grew from St. Charles to national, impacting the lives of over 5000 participants. He helped design and teach Death and Dying workshops at St. Charles in the 90’s with the goal that caregivers would become more comfortable with their own mortality as well as their patients. He believes the physician’s role is to facilitate the relationship between patients and their illness, which allows healing, regardless of physical cure. Teaching the Sacred Art of Living Community seminars are a natural extension of Dean’s interests because of the wedding of psychological and spiritual aspects of the inward journey. He has facilitated Healing the Healers seminars since 2008. Starting in 2017 he has facilitated with his wife the 10-month track (part of a program called Anamcara second year) Soul of Wellness: The course focuses on the lifelong questions “Who are you and what do you want? He is married to Marlis Beier, has two daughters and three grandsons. He lives in Bend, Oregon and enjoys cooking, skiing, hiking, gardening, traveling and being with his family.
Marlis Beier started her professional career in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Bend, Oregon. She found gratification accompanying patients facing life transitions. She learned about grief when her best friend, brother and beloved patients died. Her chronically ill daughter asked her to help her die at age 5. Grief comes not with just the loss of someone but also loss of identity and ability. The diagnosis of MS meant repeated grieving loss of ability and with time, her identity as practicing physician. She found similar gratification volunteering in hospice being with the dying. That’s where she met Sarah. Their deep friendship held space for Sarah as she grieves the tragic loss of her daughter Marley at age 2 from a drunk driver on a Sunday morning.
Marlis has been a spiritual seeker from an early age, learning from many traditions and teachers. She has become a mentor to many through teaching at hospice and the Sacred Art of Living Center. Although she teaches many diverse subjects, her intention is transformation of suffering. Her greatest love is her family, including husband Dean Sharpe, M.D., two daughters, Marissa and Anneliese, and grandsons Thielsen, Sawyer and Kepler. The saga of Anneliese’s health challenges since age one inspired her to become a better doctor, mother and companion to anyone facing illness or challenge.
Sarah Peterson is a licensed clinical social worker with over 13 years of experience in medical social work, hospice care and in private practice. As the founder of Clear Mourning, a nonprofit organization dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through innovation, support, and awareness, Sarah brings a deep understanding of grief and loss to her work. Her personal experiences, including the tragic loss of her two-year-old daughter and father, have profoundly shaped her mission to provide compassionate support to others navigating grief.
Sarah holds a Master of Social Work from Portland State University and has extensive experience in both private practice and nonprofit leadership. She also serves as an adjunct instructor at Portland State, runs her own private practice, and provides supervision for licensure candidates.
Follow us on Instagram: @ClearMourning
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Transcript
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Sarah Peterson [:Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Morning. I'm often joined by 2 incredible guests, Doctor. Marlis Beyer and Doctor. Dean Sharp, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's walk through this journey together. Welcome back everybody to our most recent episode. Today, dear Marlis and Dean are with me again, and we are gonna talk about competitive grief, exploring the hierarchy of loss. What do you guys think about that title in general? Is there one? Is there a hierarchy of loss?
Dean Sharpe [:I think it's really an important topic.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. Wow.
Dean Sharpe [:And I do think that each and every one of us has inside of us a hierarchy of what we imagine would be the most horrible loss.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Dean Sharpe [:And it then filters down through a whole series of different levels of loss, you know, like my child, my spouse, other family members, dear friends, a job where I live, whatever, all the way down to, you know, something pretty small, like my bush died that I planted 2 years ago that I had great dreams about blooming into something wonderful.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe [:So I think we automatically, in our imaginations, formulate kind of this idea about what would be the most painful, what would be the largest amount of suffering and create for ourselves our own hierarchy.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay.
Dean Sharpe [:And I think it's different. I mean, I think we'll have different hierarchies, different people.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Some might not put their spouse at the top, for example, or an old friend at the top or a parent at the top. If you really were willing to look at your hierarchy, you might be surprised who's at the top.
Dean Sharpe [:Exactly.
Sarah Peterson [:Marlis, what do you think about the title?
Marlis Beier [:Oh, I think it's brilliant because I have heard so many people, including myself, compare their grief to someone else's. And I think one of our favorite things to do is in our imagination, like, sometimes even go to thinking about the top hierarchy and going through it in imagination as Dean was talking, I immediately went to, how often do I go through what will I do if when Dean dies? It just it is. Yeah. Major oof.
Sarah Peterson [:Especially because Marlis and Dean shared a very beautiful tender moment today, and they just got done telling me about it. So they they both look great here. They're definitely in love with each other. Oh, yeah. It's a long journey. Long journey.
Marlis Beier [:But I bet It's getting better for any of you at the beginning.
Sarah Peterson [:But I bet you both can pause and really kind of gasp at what life will look like without each other. Oh, mhmm. Yeah. Hard stuff.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier [:Well and my 5 year old daughter who ended up having a bazillion 30 surgeries and really, really, really tough childhood when she was 5 years old said, you know, mom, if they can't make this better, you gotta help me die. You have to let me go. And at that time, I did. I go I went through in my imagination, making peace with the death of a child, and I think that's in part why I have so much empathy or presence with people who have lost.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. There's a threat of connection to where you've certainly paused long enough, unlike most people, because it's so horrific Right. You can't yourself there. Right? And what that might be like and feel it in your bones. Mhmm. I never knew that. Thank you for sharing that.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. And I think, you know, as soon as Marlis talks about that, I recall all of the times over those long years, major surgery with ICU stays almost every year, sometimes more than 1 year, oftentimes with really difficult complications. But we'd end up in a room in shared rooms. And in the bed next to us was a pediatric patient, which who, you know, some little girl the same age as Annalisa was, who's having her 4th correctional open heart surgery and looking at another 4. And it's really important to not allow your own hierarchy to somehow short circuit because there were so many times when I'd look in the bed, the next bed, and I I would say that looks harder. That looks like it would be. I'm glad I'm not them.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. So how do we have both perspective but not diminish our own experience at the same time?
Marlis Beier [:That is exactly what is about. Okay. We need
Sarah Peterson [:to get, like, a bell or a tambourine or some sort of acknowledgment that a that one of us has said something brilliant. Right? Yes. Ding ding ding? Okay. Great. Yeah. How can we maintain perspective, because that's everything, without diminishing our own experience? I mean, I experienced this a lot where people are like, well, my mom died, but that's nothing compared to what you've been through, Sarah. And in my honest part, I'm like, yeah. You're right.
Sarah Peterson [:And, also, you don't have to lose a child to experience the level of grief you're having right now. Like, it doesn't matter that I lost my child in this experience for you. So I'm pausing to check my own hierarchy, which is saying, yeah. I would rather lose a parent than a child. That's for sure. And also showing up to not diminish their experience. Losing a parent is really hard, and you're very sad, and there's room for that here.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. And I just you know, my imagination can go to places where what you just said would not necessarily be true for another person. That there are times when you have a child who has so much of a burden of illness and suffering for so long that a lot of the grief that you have feared you've already gone through. And in that case, the sudden loss of a parent who maybe is there supporting you through this entire journey with your child would be more devastating than a final heartfelt goodbye to the child who also is ready to say goodbye. And so it really becomes, I think, a constant exercise in being as aware as possible of comparison, which I think robs you of the moment and is a surefire way towards resentment Comparison, it's much more useful to simply go to the place of we are all human. We all suffer grief, and we all suffer a lot of grief in our lives. And sometimes in our own hierarchy, they're really, really big, and sometimes they're not so big. But the reality is that I can't compare my grief to another person's grief.
Dean Sharpe [:All I can do is to have profound compassion and kindness for myself and profound compassion and kindness for the other, for whatever they're going through because that's their journey.
Sarah Peterson [:But I can see how people would get confused. How do I have perspective without turning it into comparison? How do we do it? Because by nature of perspective, we are looking at one situation, gathering perhaps what we are grateful for, or where we've been really shafted in the world? And how does that how do we stop that from turning into comparison?
Marlis Beier [:It's a lifelong spiritual practice.
Dean Sharpe [:Mhmm.
Marlis Beier [:I mean, the Buddhists would say comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah. And, really, the only antidote to comparison in many ways is what Dean has said. It's bringing yourself to this moment and, you know, being willing to name what the emotion is and feel it and then allow it. Because, I mean, when we've said this, grief is love. Grief is love. I mean, even really whether it's the most difficult loss you can imagine or your bush. It's all something or someone or some part of your life that you truly have loved.
Marlis Beier [:And there's a process then of grieving. And to get a little woo woo, once you're willing to feel the sadness and allow it, underneath that is, love, peace, equanimity, and joy.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. And I think the other thing is to remember that as soon as you do comparison, what happens is somebody ends up discounted or diminished.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Somebody loses.
Dean Sharpe [:Somebody loses. So depending on where everything is in your own personal hierarchy, it's either the other person's grief becomes, I can't believe that in the face of the death of my father, you are having some grief about your pet as a comparison, or the flip side of that is in the midst of my grief about losing my father, I'm talking to someone who's lost their child in my hierarchy. That's a much worse thing. And then I say, well, why am I grieving my father when this other person is grieving their child? This is probably just not even important grief. And we end up shoving into the closet grief that we simply don't acknowledge. And it just builds up over a lifetime so that one day, I'm watching a life insurance advertisement on television and breaking out weeping because there's such a pile of ungrieved stuff Yeah. In my closet.
Sarah Peterson [:I wanna keep coming back to perspective being different than competition or comparison. And so, you know, if I think that if we can say, like, through the perspective, I've gained strength or what gratitude or the love side of life is available through perspective taking, I think, don't you, Versus the comparison side, which demands that there's a winner and a loser. So what might that look like? So somebody the way I used it, let's just say perspective builds strength. When Marley died, I thought to myself, people have been dealing with child loss
Dean Sharpe [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:Since the beginning of time. So the strength for me there was I'm not alone, and people survive this, what Phil's, unsurvivable experience. So it wasn't a matter of, so what the hell do I have to complain about? This has been going on forever, and some people in war zones lose all their children in a flash. I lost one. And so can you feel that difference between, like, oh, still yet, even though this is the worst, people have it worse than me. So where does that leave me? Really empty versus people have lost children since the beginning of time. So there's some way through this. Well, I mean
Marlis Beier [:and you've just named one of the ways through, which is you're not alone.
Sarah Peterson [:You're not alone. And I think if we can use the perspective to find that but even if it's just in my head of other bereaved mothers since the beginning of time, this community of people who have survived it, who have learned to live with it in a meaningful way. There's perspective. There was no winner or loser, and it was able to drive a little bit of strength for me.
Marlis Beier [:And David White, one of my very favorite poets, just says over and over again, the answer to grief is grief. Yeah. Anytime you're trying to avoid just feeling how sad you are, it's denial, avoidance, distraction, all of those things. And, I mean, there are times every one of us needs to do a Netflix binge, for sure. And, ultimately, the only way through grief is grief.
Sarah Peterson [:Is to go through it. There's no shortcut.
Marlis Beier [:You have to feel and just to make this very real, Dean, in his infinite wisdom this morning, I have just really been having a hard time with, pain and health issues lately, not that it hasn't been going on for a long time. And I was starting to say, well, at least I'm not on chemotherapy. I'm not dying. And he said, you know, Marlis, comparing is not useful. I'm sure that if the person who's on chemotherapy had to look at 30 years of MS and all the things you've been through and had to deal with, they would say they'd rather be on chemotherapy now. It's not useful to care your experience with another person's suffering. All of those comments are really, I'm trying to avoid just feeling my own sadness.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Scared. Scared. Sad. Uncomfortable. Yeah. So Dean actually had more than one wise thing to say today, because you guys started out when I got here about telling me how he had just the one wise thing. But now I'm catching that there might have been 2.
Sarah Peterson [:Or there was definitely 2. It was Maybe even 3.
Dean Sharpe [:They were all completely an accident.
Sarah Peterson [:And then, like, let's see what we capture here on this podcast team. You're, like, looking at almost yeah. I mean, you might hit 5.
Dean Sharpe [:It's possible.
Sarah Peterson [:No. Thank you for telling us that, Marles. But okay. So, like, let's put this into practice. How could that be turned into perspective versus comparison? Where could we tap into, I'm not alone, there's strength somewhere in this perspective for me?
Dean Sharpe [:A person who Kirsten Neff talked about suffering and self-compassion, and I'm reminded as soon as you started talking about we're not alone, I mean, she really has 3 steps. And the first is I'm acknowledging that I'm suffering. In this case, it's we're talking about grief, but there's lots of ways that we suffer. But grieving is one of the top ways. So it's acknowledging I'm suffering. I'm hurting. I'm sad. The reality is here, and this is what I'm feeling.
Dean Sharpe [:Her second step, it's human to suffer. We all suffer. And so in many ways, the Buddhist would say that it is what unites us as a human family in many ways is the fact that we all suffer as an inherent part of our journey on this planet. So it's human to suffer is the second step is acknowledging I'm not alone in this suffering. Not only have human beings suffered this for all the time that humans have been on this planet, But even in this moment in time, across the population of the planet, people are all suffering things like what I'm suffering. So I am not alone. I am a part of the whole fabric. And then the 3rd step, which always blows my mind because it's not where I would go normally or inherently, is may I be kind to myself? Wow.
Dean Sharpe [:That one just always brings me to a complete stop. Yeah. Like holy mackerel. Would that even be possible? Could I even do that? Could I just acknowledge that in this moment that this is what's up and treat myself well and not judge it, not look for comparison, not do any of those things I might want to do or normally do. But this is simply stop and be kind to myself and to people around. The second thing I was going to say on what Marlis said is that, like I was saying earlier with Analisa, we were so often in hospital wards or even in the same room with kids who were suffering and families who were suffering of at all different levels. I mean, some were a one time thing and it was going to get better probably. And others were, you know, in the middle of God only knows what.
Dean Sharpe [:But never once did I ever look around and want to trade places. It was like almost like this particular suffering is mine to travel with. I'm getting familiar with it. I know how to love in it. I'm learning something with it. I don't want to go back to go and try again or do it again. I mean, it's like every one of us is on our own journey. And the reality is that if when I talk to other people, they had no interest in trading with me.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe [:It was like no one wanted, oh, that looks like it'd be slightly easier suffering. I'll take yours and you can have mine. No. Kind of a, it really is. No. Thanks. Not interested. This is my journey.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I think about I've thought about that many times, like, okay. If the outcome regardless was going to be that I lost my child, do I wish that she would have had a long drawn out illness where I would have had the chance to say goodbye? And in some ways for me, I guess, I wish I obviously, clearly, undeniably wish I could have said goodbye to her, and I would never trade my need of goodbye for her to have years of suffering. So no. No. And the person who was able to be with their child and care for them and ease their way onto the other side, likely much like me can't imagine, poof, you're gone. Yeah. And so you're right.
Sarah Peterson [:Exactly. You're right. Like, it's mine. I know it. It's my reality, and so comparing it to other people's journey really has no value except a debit. I guess it does take away from a negative value. Right?
Marlis Beier [:Can I offer another way in? It is in the depth of suffering that we are all so deeply connected. Yeah. And in that kind of suffering, and I often feel this way when I am with someone in grief or whatever their suffering is, it's not my suffering or your suffering, it's our suffering.
Sarah Peterson [:That is so huge, and it's huge for a couple different reasons for me because, like, in that beginning stages of grief, as we often come to in this podcast, there's things we say here that you might not be able to tolerate or believe could be true for you. And, you know, when Marlis says that, let this just a cell of hope that someday you get there because there is ease there. The edges are softer when we can really believe it's our suffering. And in the beginning of my darkest days, Marlis would say that to me, and I'm like, no.
Dean Sharpe [:No. Not going there.
Sarah Peterson [:Actually, it's all mine and I feel the worst. So don't even you dare try to share this with me. It's mine, and you can't possibly understand. Also, let's leave room for that visceral reaction because it's part of the process.
Marlis Beier [:Oh, itis.
Sarah Peterson [:It's how you learn to live with this. And so if you heard that and you wanna turn us off, don't because we get it, and that's okay. You don't have to believe it for yourself ever or especially yet. And that will always just remain available to you as a concept. And there is a softer landing in that area.
Marlis Beier [:Well and I truly believe when you weren't off puking or screaming or
Sarah Peterson [:In my nest. Yeah. Mhmm.
Marlis Beier [:That in the moments that you were able to meet my eyes and hear my voice, there was a place where even though it was your intense, painful, horrific, shocking grief, you had a sense that you someone had your back.
Sarah Peterson [:Someone had my back. And what has been revealed to me, especially through this podcast part, is how fucking hard it was to be with me and the trust. And so it was definitely also your suffering. And, like, the trust that you guys had to rely on and in your own circles to go to get the support you needed to even support me was all part of it. And I that's what I hear when you say it's our grief. Like, yeah, it's my loss, but it's our suffering because now you're in it with me. And it's not a met we're not trying to say it's our loss in the sense that it feels exactly the same, but that we are all here doing it together.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And that's where we're trying to say, like, take away the competition. Because what Marlis wasn't saying was, and it's equal, and everything feels the same. What she was saying is that we're with you. You're not alone. And what I heard in those moments of real despair sometimes was, like, no. Like, wait. There is no competition. Like, I win.
Sarah Peterson [:This is the hardest for me. Right. Because I was so lost. Right? And so compassion for being that lost. And if you're hearing this and you're a supporter to think about what it means, the delivery and the willingness to, like, say it anyway. And all the griever really needs to do is hear it. They don't have to believe it. They don't have to see it in their future.
Sarah Peterson [:Just hear it.
Dean Sharpe [:Let it in your ears.
Marlis Beier [:You don't even have to say it. I mean, it is Right.
Dean Sharpe [:Really It
Sarah Peterson [:can just be
Marlis Beier [:a fundamental belief. It's never ever words that matter. You're right. In grief, it just doesn't matter. It's the willingness to not leave as you're puking and screaming. Yeah. It's just the willingness to be there, be the knees.
Sarah Peterson [:Be the knees.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. And I think I said in an earlier podcast that for the person journeying in support with the person who's grieving, sometimes you don't need to say it. But, you know, because you've been through grief and oftentimes are out the other side of it a bit. You know, it's going to evolve and change and get better, however better might look that that. And so it helps the one who's journeying with to not burn out and then not sort of leave in overwhelm, shut down frozen hopelessness to hold on to the hope for the other while they can't hold it. And in doing that, it helps you as the one who's journeying with to continue to journey with. It helps maintain a sense that this is not gonna all be for naught.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. Well okay. What?
Marlis Beier [:Well, I just keep thinking of Jason. Yeah. Who, in the depth of despair, took his life. And so there is a part of me with every person, wherever they are, that death is safe. Death is not, like, is something that's unacceptable reality because, I mean, we have to accept death as part of our human reality and human experience.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, even just thinking of a person diagnosed with an Alzheimer's diagnosis planning for their way out. Less brutal than what you experienced with Jason, of course, and yet, conceptually, it's the exit strategy. It
Marlis Beier [:is. Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:And okay. So let's go back to competitive grief though, because I think what Dean was just saying about being a supporter and and sustaining that role, I think it is important to be conscious of your hierarchy of grief and where that's showing up when you're supporting your griever. You know, are you diminishing your own experience? Because if you got in a fender bender that morning and it really screwed up your whole day, and then you're trying to be with your griever and you're like, oh, how could I dare be upset that my brand new car or this, you know, deductible, one that I can't afford is now hanging over my head. You know, if you're just, like, discounting that because suddenly your problems aren't nearly as terrible as your grievers, that's not helping you, and that's not gonna sustain you in your role as supporter either. Fair?
Dean Sharpe [:Fair. Fair.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. What about our culture with this competitive grief? Do you think it complicates things? Do you think our culture does a good or bad job of lining up the competition?
Marlis Beier [:I think our culture does a really pretty terrible job with grief in general. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard, well, it's not as bad as blah blah blah.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Or you should be more thankful Oh. Because you don't have a missing leg. Well, okay, but this leg hurts. You know? I mean
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. The goal of our culture is to generally not face into suffering, not face into grieving, to shove it all under the carpet and pretend like it's not happening. You're back to work in 2 days, and you ought to be fully functional by that time because after all, 2 days is enough. And all of that really supports denying, diminishing always. At least I'm not in Gaza. At least I'm not in Ukraine. At least I'm not whatever. And so it's like, well, I can just brush that off then.
Dean Sharpe [:I don't have you know, it's not
Sarah Peterson [:I have no right.
Dean Sharpe [:You're right. I have no right to and it even becomes kinda like you're being selfish.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe [:And not only you're being selfish, but you're putting all of us through this suffering and nonsense that you're going through and all of that as an inherent part of our death denying, suffering, denying culture does huge disservice to us across the board. Yep. It makes it so that we don't have funerals anymore. We don't even get together until 6 or 9 or 10 months after someone dies, and then we don't even call it a funeral. We call it a celebration of life because by then, everyone should be done grieving and we're off having a party. It's not like an Irish wake where every one of a 100 people come in. 300 people come in to view the body and shake your hand and say, I'm sorry for your troubles. And it's like you.
Dean Sharpe [:They're dead. This is real.
Sarah Peterson [:Right.
Dean Sharpe [:Here I am, and everybody is journeying with me.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I think too, like, the cultural implication can also be that I'm doing this wrong. Like, if I was doing this right, I would realize that the people everywhere else have it harder and worse than me, and I wouldn't feel so bad for myself. And then it creates this cycle of shame, which I think then takes more from already an empty well. And so, you know, the point of me really bringing up the cultural pieces because I don't know what we can do to change the culture outside of what we are doing here, even with this podcast. And as a griever, I sure assume that most people can't feel like they can't make a big difference in the culture while they're amidst their process. And just notice when the culture is telling you you're doing it wrong, and unsubscribe. Like, click the unsubscribe button from that to say, no.
Sarah Peterson [:That's the cultural piece that I don't need to listen to because this is not a competition. I don't have to compare myself to anybody, anywhere. I can just be here now with what I'm feeling.
Marlis Beier [:Well, I think in many ways, the most huge contribution any griever can make to a shift in culture is to be honest and authentic in their grief.
Sarah Peterson [:I agree. Because it's That's powerful. That's powerful. And it's so much easier. Like, none of the grieving process is easy, but it is a little easier if we actually just do it than if we try not to do it for the rest of our lives. I promise it's easier. And maybe easy is the wrong word, but No. It's I don't know what the right word is.
Sarah Peterson [:No. It's integrating. Yeah. You want It's less difficult. No. You want to You actually just do the work,
Marlis Beier [:not stick it in the closet.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. So you don't have to believe our culture that says you're not allowed to feel this way because somebody else out there has it worse, and that if you aren't doing it that way, you aren't grateful. That's not true. And to be grateful for the life I have at the same time as being incredibly sad and heartbroken for the life I have, it takes effort, but it is easier than picking a lane. Because if I picked the lane that said, I'm not gonna pay any attention to the sad part and the hard part of my life, I'm only gonna do this and wear my life is good shirt and that's it, that would take an enormous amount of effort to deny my experience in grief. And if I lived only in my grief, that would be also very, very hard, much harder than living in both.
Marlis Beier [:Well, you have to do it for a while.
Sarah Peterson [:You gotta do it. Yeah. Again, you'll some of you may hear this and think
Marlis Beier [:I just want to Go flag height. Be
Sarah Peterson [:kidding. Go flag height. I don't know what you're talking about. And, again, if you can only just hear it right now, that that will always remain available to you, that's my greatest wish.
Marlis Beier [:I feel like grandmother, my great grandmother, and my mother are all speaking right now because the message I always got was you have to be nice. And, you know, nice ladies don't cry, and nice ladies don't talk like that. And, I mean, Lord have mercy. Nice ladies don't ever use tampons.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh gosh. How old were you when you hit unsubscribe, Marlis? How old were you? How long did you make it as a subscriber?
Marlis Beier [:Well, I well, I have a great friend who always said I was a charm school drop.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I could see that.
Marlis Beier [:No. I know. There are so many people in our culture who have heard the Kool Aid or drink the Kool Aid that we are supposed to be happy all the time. You're supposed to be friendly and happy and nice and only talk about nice things and good things. Be positive. Be positive. Positive. When you are in grief, I want you to go kick some butt and grieve.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I went to the woods once, and I think I had a great friend. She built a big, big fire. She brought warm soup and a thermos, and she just said, we're here as long as you need to be here. And I just wailed and screamed. And it it was the beginning of hunting season, so I'm sure there was a couple dudes out there that were getting nervous about what was happening. But, you know, oh, well. What a cathartic experience.
Sarah Peterson [:It was beautiful and incredible and also awful and gross and so sad and terrible. Snot factory. Oh, gosh. Yeah.
Marlis Beier [:Big time. So are we gonna do one on ritual?
Sarah Peterson [:Well, we've mentioned it a few times. Oh, you know, honestly, guys, can you believe We're coming to the end of our episodes. Like, maybe 1 more, maybe 2 more, and that's it. And then we've done them all for this season. Okay. So like us and subscribe to us and write reviews because we'd like to know if people want us back for another season. We really wanna know that. Okay.
Sarah Peterson [:So one of the conversations we had prior to hitting the record button when we were just prepping about the hierarchy of grief was whether or not if you're considering your hierarchy of grief, and let's say your pet is at the top of your list. Is it okay? Is there permission to bring your pet into the conversation when you're supporting somebody or in a situation where we're actually talking about the loss of a person? And my initial reaction is no. But there's a really good argument for the other side.
Marlis Beier [:I was the one arguing the other side because I think that that's the worst part of competitive grief. There are so many people for whom their primary relationship in the world is their pet. Yeah. And that is who they talk to. That's who they go home to. That's who has been their companion, and they certainly last as long as a bunch of marriages in our culture. And there are people for whom the worst grief in their life is the loss of a pet. And a very good friend of ours, an oncologist, who, I grant you, was at a very tough time in his life, but when his beloved dog, Leo, died, he felt like there was no one left in the world who loved him.
Marlis Beier [:And I'm not about to say to him, oh, jeez. It's just your pet. Alright.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, I'm glad. That's good. Well, thanks. That's tender. Yeah. What are you gonna say, Dean?
Dean Sharpe [:I think it's one of those things where you kinda set it up as if you have a person whose pet is lost with someone who's lost a child, for example. And what you don't wanna do in that conversation is to even get close to some sort of a competitive thing or, well, the same thing happened to me.
Sarah Peterson [:I know how you feel.
Dean Sharpe [:I know exactly how you feel. I've lost blah blah blah, or you couldn't possibly know how I feel because you've only lost, or all the ways that kind of 2 people coming together in grief might explode the entire thing into some competitive place as opposed to each allowing what they're suffering to open them to compassion for the other. Yeah. And to recognize that both are suffering and to be kind to one another and to be kind to themselves in the face of that suffering is the appropriate response. No one understands exactly another person's grief, but we all know what it is to grieve. So it's about empathy and compassion without comparison. Empathy and compassion without the I know exactly how you feel because you don't.
Sarah Peterson [:You don't.
Dean Sharpe [:And they don't know exactly how you feel exactly Other than they know that you're suffering and that is not being a lot of fun. Yeah. And so it's really about how can we utilize the fact that I mean, even if it's my bush, I know what it's like to be sad for something that has passed out of your life that you spent some life energy on and you loved and you cared about. And maybe you spent a lot of time before that deer ate it all up.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Did this really happen?
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. That's why. I only it's raw. It only happened just a few weeks ago. Okay.
Dean Sharpe [:Has a big fence around it now. No deer's getting into
Sarah Peterson [:that bush. I'll teach you. Okay. So this is What I mean life of people.
Dean Sharpe [:I'm not gonna say that I'm not sad about my bush.
Dean Sharpe [:I'm not. As ridiculous as this found. I somebody's asking you
Dean Sharpe [:to I know. I wanna honor the fact that this is one of a series of griefs in my life. Right. It's not the worst for sure, but it helps me understand all the different levels of grief that human beings have. And there are other people who are grieving a goldfish. And, honestly, I don't wanna diss anyone who's grieving a goldfish and make it equal to my bush, but it might be close.
Sarah Peterson [:It's because I keep thinking about my eyesight. I just turned 45 this year, and suddenly I can't see shit. I know. I have been somebody who's been very proud of my stellar vision my whole life. And now, like, the first hour, you know, you wonder why I'm slow on my Wordle. It's because I can't see my phone, and my glasses aren't next to my bed. Yeah. Okay.
Sarah Peterson [:So we can still connect on suffering even if it doesn't match our own hierarchy. And, honestly, as you were talking, I was just thinking, dear god, Sarah, you should hang your head in shame. I think I'm a judgy griever. I think that I am a judgy griever.
Marlis Beier [:I'm not You've been trying so hard not to say that.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, well, now you can. I can handle it. I'm a judgy griever.
Marlis Beier [:Oh, well
Sarah Peterson [:I don't think I'm a judgy grief counselor. No. I can do that well.
Dean Sharpe [:That's right.
Sarah Peterson [:But when I'm living in my mud, I think I'm judgy.
Marlis Beier [:When it's not you are lost and there's no one who's ever had grief as bad as this. My situation really is the peak. I'm winning the competition.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes. For the winners Olympic medalist in worst Grief. Grief ever. Ever. So I got the medal today. I could set this down. Or not. I'm just kidding.
Sarah Peterson [:I think that I fight myself though because I know better. I know better than to think that mine's the worst. It's not. There is the worst. It's also terrible. Sarah.
Marlis Beier [:No. It is the worst.
Sarah Peterson [:Because it's mine.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. Mhmm. Right.
Marlis Beier [:Yeah. No. And it was the worst.
Sarah Peterson [:It was the worst.
Marlis Beier [:I I want you to hear it was the worst.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. So terrible.
Marlis Beier [:And I also know that although all those thoughts are going through your head when people are talking about their dead cat that it doesn't come out your mouth. Right.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, I did pretty well while Dean was going on and on about the bush. Right?
Dean Sharpe [:Right. Well,
Dean Sharpe [:I kept it to, you know
Dean Sharpe [:I lost it. For me, it might be that the loss of my bush is the worst. Right. Right. And, I mean and then you can get all judgy, like, well, he probably doesn't have very much grief in your life, but How lucky are you? You don't know Mhmm. What that bush meant to me. It's true. I mean, you don't.
Dean Sharpe [:It's true. I mean, that's the place where the judgy part gets kind of sticky.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Because
Dean Sharpe [:because you think of your relationship with Bush's, and you think that that has to be my relationship.
Sarah Peterson [:You're right.
Dean Sharpe [:It's my bush, but it's not. My my bush was way up there as just an I I I No.
Dean Sharpe [:No. I love it. And I'm As a ridiculous example.
Sarah Peterson [:And you're being such a good sport.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. No. But I think, like I've said, it has to be a portal to each and every one of our ability to be empathetic because we know what grief is like and then to have compassion that we have the empathy. We know what grief is like. We know what this other person, what their suffering is like. We don't know exactly what it is, but we know what their suffering is like. And our compassion is that we have a wish to be able to help in some way, to journey with in some way, to ameliorate in some way the suffering. And the challenge is to find ways to do that, which aren't stupid and which don't say ridiculous things, and instead simply allow us to be present with that person and journey with them and do it in a way that doesn't compare and doesn't judge and doesn't think I know, and which is a judgment in and of itself, doesn't think that because my empathy says it has to be this way because that's been my experience, therefore, they are that way, but instead to take cues, to listen to what they might want, how they might want their journey to be.
Dean Sharpe [:I mean, some people want you to sit there and hug all over them and hold them. Yeah. God forbid that somebody came and hugged all over me and held me while I was deep into grief. I want someone there. There's no question. I want someone there. I want someone next to me. I want someone who has my back, but I don't want any of that huggy stuff.
Dean Sharpe [:I would feel smothered, and it would be too much for me.
Sarah Peterson [:And what I'm hearing you suit too, Dean, say is that ultimately, if we can capitalize on this perspective, which means we join in the threads that we share, it drives connection. Where when we are overwhelmed by the comparison, it drives disconnection. Yes. Perfect. And
Dean Sharpe [:You are a genius. You're wise.
Sarah Peterson [:Whether or not we're talking about my eyesight, or the bush, or the loss of someone you love, there is an element that we all can share and relate to. That gives us enough space to be empathetic and compassionate. Not because we must understand exactly, not because we must diminish or overwhelm somebody else's experience in order to be validated, but just that we can share in it a little. Back to Marliss's, it's our grief. Do you have last thoughts?
Marlis Beier [:I have only one last comment. Okay. You'll screw it up, and that's okay.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, god. I'm like, what now? What else do you screw it up? Yeah. Yeah. No. The griever. You'll do the
Marlis Beier [:you'll make griever.
Dean Sharpe [:You'll make missteps.
Sarah Peterson [:And you'll supporter.
Marlis Beier [:Missteps. You will make you'll screw it up and that's okay. Because it is human to screw it up and what making amends and going back and saying I'm so sorry. That wasn't what you needed. That wasn't what you wanted. I apologize. You know, most of the time, it's projection. That's what I would've wanted.
Marlis Beier [:That's what I would've needed. And then you just say and that desire to reconnect is what creates safety in the relationship.
Sarah Peterson [:Absolutely. I mean, I don't know if you guys remember. We all know who my therapist was, and I adore and cherish her and all that she did for me and think that she's an incredibly talented and smart and compassionate kind person. And she said one of the dumbest things to me. I don't know if you remember what she said, but it doesn't matter, but I will say it was one of the dumber things. And and her ability to be humble and come back to me and say, oh, oh my god. I can't believe I said that. What was I thinking? It was an incredible exercise of trust and resilience on both our parts.
Sarah Peterson [:And I'm I mean, there was so much there. There was so much richness in that exchange following the dumb comment, and that's available to all of us because Marlis is right. We're all gonna screw it up both as grievers and supporters. You're gonna do things you think, what was I thinking? I I didn't know, or I did know better, and I just did it anyway. It doesn't matter. But go back. Don't walk away. Don't be too scared that you don't try.
Sarah Peterson [:Right? I did tell somebody one thing. They said, you know, I'm doing this. I'm doing that. And I said or no. Let me think. In the end of that, I said, choosing to do nothing and not knowing what to do are 2 very different things. And we hope that with this podcast, you might be able to get some ideas about what to do versus just choose to do nothing because it's too scary. Does that make sense?
Marlis Beier [:Yes. And I give everyone full permission to not know because most of the time, we really don't know.
Sarah Peterson [:We don't know. We just have to try Don't know. And trust.
Dean Sharpe [:And I
Sarah Peterson [:And we hope that with this podcast, you're able to kind of get some bumpers for your lane just to help guide you a little bit. No. But, again, you guys, as every time, I've learned so much both about myself and about you, and I'm just so grateful that you're willing to share this space with me and do this podcast. And, I mean, we know what we're getting Dean for his birthday, a new bush. Thanks for being
Dean Sharpe [:There is nothing that will replace the old bush.
Sarah Peterson [:Thanks for being here. Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
