Episode 2
Value and Honor the Grieving Process using Respect and Empathic Care -2
Join Sarah Peterson, Marlis Beier, and Dean Sharpe in today's episode of Enduring Grief as they illuminate the path through loss. This episode provides a expansive look into grief rituals, the significance of the Enneagram in coping with loss, and the role of empathy in helping others. Discover actionable advice, like the "3 H’s" approach – "Asking someone if they need to be "Heard, Hugged, or Helped" – and strategies to respond authentically to "How are you?"
Listen in for thoughtful discussions on varying grief styles, the need for honest communication, and how simple acts of support can build a network of care. Whether you're grieving or supporting someone who is, this episode offers vital understanding and guidance.
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Transcript
NOTE:
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Sarah Peterson [:Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Morning. I'm often joined by 2 incredible guests, Doctor. Marlis Beier and Doctor. Dean Sharp, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's walk through this journey together. Hey. Welcome, everybody. We are so excited to launch our very first podcast here together as a group and also ever, ever for any of us. So I am really excited to introduce 2 very important and special people in my life, Dean Sharpe and Marlis Beier, 2 folks who have joined me on my grief journey. 1st, I'll tell you a little bit about myself. My name is Sarah. And for years, I was a hospice social worker and really felt like I understood how grief worked and how to take care of people who were grieving.
Sarah Peterson [:And until my own loss in 2016 when my daughter was killed by a drunk driver and I lost my father, not till then did I understand that I actually had very little knowledge about the grief experience or how to care for people in grief. On the day that my daughter, Marlis, was killed, my family knew best and reached out to these 2 wonderful and supportive amazing humans that are sitting here with me today, and I'll ever I will always be so grateful that they showed up for me on that day, quite possibly changing the entire course of my grief experience and leading me to where I am today. So first, I'll introduce Marlis . Welcome, Marlis . Thank you.
Marlis Beier [:I'm Marlis Beier, and I used to do obstetrics and gynecology. One of the largest griefs in my life was, the loss of physical function when I got MS and then lost my identity of obstetrician. I love being with people in transition. And so in seeking something like that, I went to hospice. And so I learned how to be with people in the transition of dying and grief. I've had my own griefs through my life, and certainly being with Sarah after the death of Marley was one of the most profound experiences. And I'm amazed at how much grief has both broken my heart open and taught me so much about the value of being alive.
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you. Good intro. And, Dean, thanks for being here.
Dean Sharpe [:Well, thanks for having me. My name is Dean Sharp, and I trained as a general surgeon, practiced, for 20 years. And during that period of time, also became a hospital administrator and, vice president of medical affairs. And at the end of my practice, I began to facilitate seminars that taught people about spiritual suffering and specifically at the end of life. And as time has gone by, it's become clearer and clearer to me that in order for any of us to suffer less at the end of our lives, we need to engage in the suffering that's up for us as we go through our lives. And for me, I haven't had a grief experience as intense as Sarah's losing her daughter, Marley. But like all of us, I've had many, many transitions in my life, which were really hard. And some of those with my own daughter's extended illness as a child and accompanying Marlis, my wife, who's you just heard from in her journey with medical problems.
Dean Sharpe [:So it's, one of those things where I think we have a tendency to think that grief is some huge giant thing that just shows up, and it's gonna devastate us. And I think in addition to that, there are just a whole series of smaller griefs through our lives, which if we don't practice with them and don't be conscious of them, then the bigger ones will even be more overwhelming.
Sarah Peterson [:Exactly. Well put. And a good segue for me to talk about why we're doing this podcast, We all, through our life experience, through our practice, through our personal experience, our professional experience, have learned what it's like to lose the idea of what we should have versus what we really have. And so throughout this podcast, you're gonna hear tangible, real life grief examples and how we deal with them. I'm currently a therapist, and oftentimes when I'm helping people through their grief, I find that we are not actually talking about Elizabeth Kubler's 5 stages of grief, but, in fact, far more day to day grief driven experiences and angst filled interactions. And so we wanna dive into what it's like to just be boots on the ground, a griever, and boots on the ground, a supporter. And, you know, although Marlis and Dean didn't touch on their own personal losses, they both too have lost people that they love very much. So the beauty of this is that through the practice of grieving, let's just say, smaller ticket items like a job change or some losing your driver's license because you have Alzheimer's, those kinds of things.
Sarah Peterson [:They're opportunities, which is what Dean was saying, to practice learning how to grieve so that when, like all of us, we experience a big ticket loss, something that really breaks our heart wide open. We have a a sense of, I don't know, what's the word, strategy, hope.
Dean Sharpe [:Practice.
Sarah Peterson [:Practice. There we go. That's why we're doing this. So each podcast, we're gonna take you guys through a little rhythm. We're gonna talk about the realities of a grief experience and why today's topic is what it is. We're gonna share from our own experience as both grievers and supporters what that looks like in the real world, and then we're gonna do strategies and tips for moving through it and transforming. Hey, Dean. Do you have a good quote about transforming pain?
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. Richard Rohrer said that any suffering or pain which is not transformed ends up being transmitted. And it's a a way of thinking about how it is that over generations from ancestors to the current generation, often suffering, which has been unresolved along the way, shows up in progeny.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes. That's a good one. I think that if I ever were to get a tattoo, it might say pain not transformed is transmitted because it's a constant reminder whether or not you're driving on the highway, getting cut off, or dealing with the loss of a loved one. It's a real challenge or up for it. We gotta transform this. And how does one transform pain? Well, through compassion.
Marlis Beier [:Well, it's going, from the judgment that you have about the pain and how it is. I mean, ultimately, suffering is always just resisting life as it is. And when we lose someone or some expectation, that always creates some grief or suffering. And it isn't the way we thought it would be, isn't the way we wanted it to be. And so transformation of suffering requires that you go from judgment to compassion and ultimately in finding peace with what is. But when Dean was talking about how pain, which is not transformed, is transmitted, It brought to mind to me our next subject, which is about the Enneagram. And my family, my ancestors, my mother, didn't do grief, didn't do pain. My mother never went to funerals, didn't pay any attention.
Marlis Beier [:I mean, when the subject of death came up when I was a child, It was avoided, was left out to lunch. And I think that that has contributed to my antitype, which is, an 8, and there are 9 different enneatypes. And all of these enneatypes are a response to how it is we developed a personality when we had our very first intense loss, and that is a loss of connection. And you can say it's connection to your mother or connection to your parents or connection to God, but it's connection to a sense that you're not alone. And so, you know, in my 8 version of being alone, I became very tough and strong and wasn't willing to acknowledge the pain that I was having until and the grief I was having until it got real. And I began I lost, you know, my friend who died when I was very young, and I had young children and she had young children, and it broke my heart. Like I said before, I think what grief does is break your heart open.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I think when we go to our next part, which is answering the question, how are you? One of those nitty gritty daily parts of the grief process, our Enneagram type really matters because I listen to grievers who are maybe not an 8 because I, like Marlis, am an 8. And there's links that you can find, to what an Enneagram is. We encourage all of you to get familiar with your Enneagram number as it provides a source of I don't know. Is it a map? Is it a guide? Is it a deeper understanding of why and how you respond the way you do? Is that a good way of saying it?
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. It's a way of, looking at our personality and how it developed and the kinds of stories we tell ourselves about why things are the way they are and how it is that we strategize to get more of what it is that we need or want in the world almost always. That comes down to love and support initially, as Marlis was saying from our original caregivers. But then it becomes a strategy we use in every interaction that we have going forward.
Sarah Peterson [:So while you're in grief, Dean, as a 5, and somebody says, how are you? Even though you're really terrible on the inside, how do you answer that?
Dean Sharpe [:Well, the 5 is, with more withdrawn type and is in the thinking or intellectual, part of the enneagram. And so the tendency that I have in grieving is to pull in and withdraw, and to move into what I might call my castle, pull up the drawbridge, and, begin to work it out. And often that working it out is an intellectual process because I'm pretty distant from my emotions, or at least have been as a initial way that I was in the world, is something I've gotten better at, but only with a lot of practice and help from others. And so if someone asks me how I am, my tendency is in general to just move to the superficial answer fine or whatever. I think there are kinda 3 kinds of people in the world which are gonna be answering or asking that question. 1 is people who have no idea what you're going through, have no idea your reality that's the checkout person in the grocery store. And you're forced in that situation rather than dumping your entire story on them to respond in a way that's socially appropriate. Okay.
Dean Sharpe [:I'm fine. You know, all things considered, whatever you might say. Then there are the people who you know, who know what's going on, who in their own suffering, in the face of your suffering, want to really make you feel better so that they can feel better because they don't really have any other way of being with you. And so, they're asking is sort of to get reassured that you're getting better, that you're gonna be okay, that you they're reassured. And that group of people, really, oftentimes in the depths of grief, you just have no use for. Amen. Amen. Yes.
Sarah Peterson [:You might find that we add a little humor here because sometimes Yeah. Maybe the truth is funny.
Dean Sharpe [:And then there are the people who know that they can't fix your grief, that all they can offer is a container or a presence to journey with you. And they truly want to know how you're doing. And they truly want to hear it in its complexity. And they're not gonna be judging, and they're not there with an agenda, and they're not there with an idea of what's the right way that you ought to be grieving. I also wanna say about the fix it piece, and this is a little aside. But, you know, the tendency that we have when facing into another person's grief, being with someone who is grieving, is this desire to make it all better, to say the right thing. And the reality is that you can't fix another person's suffering. That if Marlis were to die tonight and I woke up tomorrow morning in resistance to how things are, because this is not what I planned.
Dean Sharpe [:This is not how I wanted it to be. I have no interest in this. God, you know, I'm pretty mad at you right now for having made this way. If you came and wanted to fix my grief, there's only one response that I'm willing to consider, and that is that you would resurrect Marlis. And since that's probably not something most of us can do, you literally can't fix it. I'm gonna have to find my own way to come to some sort of a right relationship with how things are, and that is that she has died. And so oftentimes people say incredibly stupid things in the face of trying to make things better. You know, the woman has a miscarriage and is suffering and sad.
Dean Sharpe [:And some good meaning friend says something really intelligent like, at least you can get pregnant. Or something equally bright like, well, you can always get pregnant again. As if a new pregnancy would replace the one that was lost. As if you just move on and sort of replace. And so, in general, my advice is to people who wanna fix things is to don't say anything because, generally, you'll say something stupid.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, I like that advice.
Marlis Beier [:My experience I mean, if I'm with someone who I care about and I want to know, I would never ask, how are you? Yeah. I would ask, are you sleeping?
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Let's get to that though because I think that we can work toward, like, first, what it feels like to get the question. And then I think a lot of supporters out there are curious, what do I say? Because I don't think many people know an alternative to how are you. I don't think they have that. But you're right. Absolutely. There's other questions. But if we're going back to how are you through the eyes of the 5, what Dean just told us is know your audience.
Sarah Peterson [:Know your audience. Who's asking you? What's their level of interest, and how much do you wanna make yourself vulnerable to the experience? Now as an 8, I care much less about who my audience is, and I just probably would come from the gut because I don't know, Dean, if I've ever cared at the grocery store, at least in the beginning. When they said, how are you, I don't know that I paused to read my room. I think I might have been very angry in my reply and said something that made them incredibly uncomfortable but got them to leave me alone, which maybe, you know, was my ultimate goal. So, again, like, understanding your enneatype and using that as a tool to help yourself predict and prepare for these interactions can be a gift in the grieving experience. Agreed?
Marlis Beier [:Agreed. And 234, heart space, their interest is really more taking care of the person who's probably asking the question. So sad for them. So then their response is going to be something that's about trying to make the other person feel good. And those are the anyotypes Dean was talking about where they have an agenda in asking the question, and it's about making everybody feel better, including themselves.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Dean Sharpe [:That's why it's good to know numbers.
Sarah Peterson [:So what do you do if you don't know your number? You can take a test, figure it out. It all applies across the board, but especially in grief because, like I said, it can help you prepare and predict and, strategize your responses when you know what your filter the filter through which you see the world really looks like. But what if you're dealing with somebody who you're not sure what number they are? What should you do? Like, I know you're an 8, so I can respond accordingly. And I know Dean's a 5, so I can respond accordingly. What if I didn't know?
Marlis Beier [:That's the majority of the time. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:So what do you do? How do you use this tool when we don't have that information? Compassion. Okay. Human. Just room for mistakes.
Marlis Beier [:Oh, just here I am, and I am unknowing, and I'm willing to be in the unknowing, and I'm willing to be in the unknowing with you in your grief.
Sarah Peterson [:It was one of the things you said to me right after losing Marley. I remember very specifically even where I was standing when you I was probably really upset that somebody had said something really stupid because that happens a lot. And you said, Sarah, the people who love you so much are gonna say such dumb things, and you just have to let it go. Yes. And in the moment, guess what that made me feel? Angry, and you were so right. And a lot of what you said back then made me feel very angry because you were so right. You know? But the bottom line is I kept coming back because there was always space for me.
Sarah Peterson [:I wasn't being told that I was doing it wrong or that I should be doing it differently. I really feel like if we're using Dean's 3 types of people, you've always been one who I could who was authentically asking me and authentically caring about exactly how I was doing. Same for you, Dean.
Marlis Beier [:Well and what you bring up, whether it's in the how are you or whatever, is that inevitably, there's such anger at what has happened.
Sarah Peterson [:You know, the only thing that's really interesting to me, which has been a great exercise of kind of putting my money where my mouth is as I preach to anybody who will listen that each griever is entitled to their own grief experience is that some people aren't angry. I've been with parents who've lost a baby during an experience that maybe the baby didn't have to die, and they were actively choosing non anger. And it was very difficult for me to hold space for that because I was so angry for them, and of course, living through my own experience of how unfair and the brutal injustice of this all. So I do think it's surprising how there are people who really they're sad and they feel ripped off, but that rage is missing for them.
Sarah Peterson [:You think I'm wrong?
Marlis Beier [:I think that every transition and every loss, each of us as human beings have the complete kaleidoscope of emotions. And some of those emotions are bigger for some people than others, But, really, each one of us have all of those emotions and being willing to be conscious of each one of the emotions is part of the journey. So those same parents who right now are completely in acceptance of what has happened later on, and especially as they're facing life review time, that's when the anger may show up.
Sarah Peterson [:It may.
Marlis Beier [:And so I I'm not attached at all. I just wanna give everyone the space to have every color of emotion immediately after a loss and in the long journey of processing that difficult.
Sarah Peterson [:And for the rest of your life. Don't worry, folks. It's gonna be with you for life, your whole life to work it out. And I worry sometimes that people are so hard on themselves about how they're grieving and whether or not they're doing it, quote, end quote, the right way, that if we can, in this group, even just say, maybe you're not angry. Okay. Which has been a real lesson for me because I think when I first started really being with, like, a cute grief response, I could only expect that they would be so angry. You know?
Dean Sharpe [:Everyone will do the journey in their own way and have needs at particular times that are gonna be different and even sometimes contradictory. I know in my own experience as sort of the, a withdrawn type 5 kind of a person, you know, when, and actually probably because I'm also male, When I grieve, I kinda want it to be shoulder to shoulder. I'm not real interested in a lot of touching or a lot of hugging. I'm kind of a person who would want space, but also a person who is going to truly need support. So someone who's around kind of organizing things and maybe making sure I have something to eat and, you know, kind of the bodily support pieces around me. But then, spaciousness around me for me to do my own process. What I know is that because that's what I would prefer, I tend to enter the situations where I'm in support of another person and I tend to apply that to the other. But I know for a fact that when I do that with Marlis and when she is grieving, what she wants is a lot of, oh, honey.
Dean Sharpe [:I know it's so hard. And can I just give you a big hug? And it's so foreign to my natural tendencies that I think in a lot of ways, a part of the grief process for the person who's grieving and the persons who are supporting that, that the griever, that there's enough communication and noticing and cues that get picked up so that, you set down your own expectations based on your own desires, and you be present with the other to the extent that you can be fully open and present. And sometimes you just have to ask, you know, do you wanna hug? Do you want me to sit here just next to you, or would you like me to put my arm around you? And to be willing to be in non judgment, no matter what it is that they want or desire in that moment.
Marlis Beier [:I have the 3 h's, which I find incredibly helpful with anyone with whom I am sitting, and that is, do you just want to be heard? Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be helped? And before I say something that I think will help them, it's really good to find out where they are in their own grief journey.
Sarah Peterson [:How have I never heard your 3 h's? That's crazy. Those are great.
Marlis Beier [:Thank you. Yeah. That's wonderful.
Sarah Peterson [:I love it. How have I never heard that? Who knows? I wasn't listening, I guess.
Dean Sharpe [:I think We just learned it from our daughter.
Marlis Beier [:Oh, really? A a recent edition. Oh, it's so good. Well, and it's really good.
Sarah Peterson [:It is. Yeah. For sure. I love it. There's a nugget, heard, hugged, helped.
Marlis Beier [:Yeah. And so often, it's heard. Yeah. And it's real helpful when I just know how they could think or act differently, and it would be really helpful to them, but they don't want any help.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. Right. It's good to know. Sets you up. Right? Tees you up for success. So the question, how are you, can elicit so many different emotions depending on, 1, of course, what your Enneagram type is, 2, the type of loss you're facing, and 3, the response from the audience, you know, who's really asking you the question. And I think, for me, the times in which I've kind of flown off the handle, grace and compassion for not having capacity to answer the question other than authentically. And for those who muster through and say I'm just fine to get through the next and onto the next moment, that's okay too.
Sarah Peterson [:Right? Oh, totally. And what my comment often is I'm on my journey. That's a good one.
Marlis Beier [:I don't that way, it's open. They don't have to say anything. They don't have to fix it.
Sarah Peterson [:I like that one.
Marlis Beier [:They don't have to do anything. It's just acknowledging that it's a whole new journey.
Sarah Peterson [:I really like that one. Gosh. You're full of them today. I appreciate that. I'm on my journey. Alive and well. I've heard that one before too. But, really, truly, the bottom line is you're gonna be caught off guard at times.
Sarah Peterson [:You're gonna be inspired to say things that maybe you can't believe you would say, including I'm fine. I know there was a time when I was able to say, whatever. I'm fine in order to move on to the next moment that then also came with its own level of, I don't know if guilt is the right word, but deep sadness because I really felt like I was dishonoring my daughter, like I was lying about how terrible I felt. And, oh, my gosh. What if she can hear me tell people I'm fine? I'm not fine. And so there's a lot to work with. There's a lot of layers to the question, how are you? And if we can offer support to grievers, it's that you just take a moment to sort of think through this process for you. And maybe you look at it through the eyes of your any type.
Sarah Peterson [:Maybe you look at it through the eyes of who your audience will be in that moment. I'm on my way to the store. They're gonna somebody there is gonna say, how are you? What can I say? That's gonna both feel authentic and allow me to meet my goal, which could be bear my soul, which could be move on to the next thing. So It's survival.
Marlis Beier [:It is survival. It is acute grief. It's purely survival. And so my recommendation for the response to how are you is how will you survive the easiest? Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:That's how we actually started this conversation because Marlis was describing that she would answer that with the easiest, less feather ruffling statement and just move on to the next thing in order to survive. And I still struggle with that. I do. Because there are still days where I'm like, screw the feathers. I wanna let the world know. I might look normal. I might walk normal and talk normal. And, well, maybe I don't, but you know what I'm saying.
Marlis Beier [:So this is one of those moments. Mhmm. Would you like to be heard? Would you like to be hugged, or would you like to be helped?
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, yes. Heard, definitely. With the microphone in front of me, I'm definitely, I'm here getting heard. And mostly offering permission for you to strategize your experience based on, okay, your survival might depend on getting through and out of the store as quickly as possible. It also might be that you're honest about your experience in that moment at the store. But to take a moment, the here's the tool part, to take a moment and ask yourself, who's my audience? How deep do I wanna go? And what is my goal? How can I meet it? Might be a way to decrease the anxiety around these interactions. Fair? Fair.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. And I think it's very interesting to listen to your story about your response to that question. And if you were to say fine, that there's this part of you that believes that that's disrespectful to the memory of your daughter. And I think that's a very powerful story and probably the story of many people. But it's not the only story that people might wander around with. Other people might honestly say or feel that the person who had died would want you to be as kind as possible to all of the people around you and to help them as much as possible. And that your mission would be entirely different than that. And I think the key here is to just continue to recognize there's no best story.
Dean Sharpe [:There's no right story. That all of us will have our own story. And to profoundly respect your own story. And if you're accompanying someone to be open and curious about the stories they're telling themselves. I think there's also a place where if you do know and begin to recognize the kind of story that's underlying your grief response, it's very helpful in moving forward to not the place where you no longer grieve or where you no longer care, or you can no longer be struck, triggered out of the blue into, oh my God, I'm so sad in this moment. But instead moving to a place where you are in a new kind of relationship with the person who has died. But as you move forward, ultimately what you'll do is reach a place where you're in right relationship with reality. Where you're in right relationship with the fact that this person is no longer with you in the way they were before, like present as a body interacting with you.
Dean Sharpe [:And that for most of the time, you're peaceful and in equanimity around that. And ultimately, that would be a healing or a definition of healing for any kind of suffering of which grief is 1. There are also other kinds, such as forgiveness suffering or non forgiveness suffering, meaning suffering. Grief is one of the dimensions of the kinds of things we suffer with as human beings.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Absolutely. So, essentially, know your story. Understand your story. Understand, like, starting with the goal. Right? My goal is to survive this experience. Now what stories? We know Sarah's bringing up this story, but that's, like Dean said, not the only story. So what is your story? And getting familiar with that story allows you to get familiar with the relationship that you now have with the person, which is your grief.
Sarah Peterson [:And like any relationship, it requires attention, intention, love, understanding, compassion, and even, yes, boundaries. I can't do this today, so my answer is I'm fine. Right? That's a boundary with your grief, and you're allowed to have those like you are in every other relationship, which takes practice.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. All said.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, thanks. It's like I've said this a few times to myself in the mirror. Right? You know, I'll often describe grief, especially to new grievers, as a a wave, you know, that 1st year. And I I I don't really like to put timelines on things, but I do think there's some truth till the 1st year, especially, and the 2nd year, especially. You're Marlis is shaking her head. Why are you shaking your head? Oh, it's so true. Okay.
Sarah Peterson [:Good. We're on the same page. Gosh. Yeah. Just so The 1st year, it's just like, if you've ever been to the beach, especially the ocean, and you watch people who are clearly there for the first time, and they think they can just jump in, and that wave that first wave just gets them, and they're face down thinking that, you know, their life is flashing before their eyes, face full of sand, not sure which way's up, swimsuits are off. You know, it's really scary, and there's no control. The wave is in charge. That's like the 1st year, I think, right, over and over.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, maybe a little bit of subsiding here and there. But as you invest in the relationship with grief, you can start to understand the wave so that things like strategizing how you're gonna answer how are you can be a version of you sort of turning to the side and letting the wave not hit you full front face, or maybe even you duck under the wave altogether, also an option. But, again, it's gonna require, like Dean said, that you get to know your story and have the relationship with the grief. So now that we've sort of delved into what it means to be a griever, how to answer what seems like a really simple question, how are you, we also wanna give you some more information about what it's like to be a supporter and, if you're a griever, how you might ask for the most meaningful support from your people. As we were just doing a pre discussion about this, Marla shared that she already has an opinion, so I'm excited to hear it.
Marlis Beier [:Well, I think all the listeners have already heard the contrast in, you know, I would love to be held and nurtured and say sweet things. And I'm married to a man who would like space and can't imagine wanting to be hugged and held and nurtured. So I think the moral of the story is you can't always get what you want. Oh, yes. And so I think it's been helpful in our relationship to identify what it is that would feel soothing to me. And I think in part, you know, grief is a lonely journey and that it's like the song, there is one thing we do. One dance we do alone and so that in part, it's helpful to say to your family and friends what would be supportive. And, ultimately, the soothing is found inside myself, and the soothing is it's a long term journey.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. So what you're saying is that it's okay to ask. You might not get what you want, but you can certainly ask for it.
Marlis Beier [:I have. Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:Yep. And if you go to our website, clear morning.org, you can find something called the grief supporters manual, which I think can be a really helpful tool for both grievers as they navigate what it means to ask for the type of support they need, but also for supporters as they sometimes and oftentimes find themselves clueless in how to offer good support to the people they love. You know, Dean, do you have thoughts on what she just said?
Dean Sharpe [:You know, for me, the person who's supporting the griever can't grieve for them and can't fix it. There's no advice that they can give that's gonna suddenly make it all better. And so as a support person, it is our presence that is healing. Our willingness to journey alongside the person who is grieving. To, you know, pick up the pieces of logistical support that might be needed certainly is hugely needed in the very, very early stages, and then gradually drops off. And yet, the emotional presence and ability to simply empathically be with the other person, and to walk with them and recognizing deep inside that you can't fix it. You can't make it all better. At the same time, it's a privilege to journey with the other person.
Dean Sharpe [:And I think there's a place where it's important for the person accompanying to have some sort of a concept of that which is greater than, that which they have no control over, that which is out there and, and people might call that God or mother nature or the universe. There's a lot of ways, but it's like, whatever is going on here can be held in a larger container than the one that any of us are currently perceiving. And there is this sense of relief and that you're not responsible. And that's the trap that you can fall into as the supporter that's dangerous.
Sarah Peterson [:Agreed. I can't help but think of one of the most profound experiences I've had, especially with you, Dean, was the day that Marley died. And we all gathered at, my parents' home. And I don't remember much, but I do remember being curled up on the couch and not being able to really even look outside of the blanket that was covering me because the reality of what my life had just become was absolutely inconceivable and earth shattering. And all I could see were Dean's knees sitting in an armchair pretty close to the couch, and he didn't say a word. And in some ways, I kept anticipating that there would have to be a conversation, and then there never was. And the ability to sit with me as I probably was trembling and crying and couldn't I mean Poking. Poking, all the things devastated beyond to just simply sit there and be with me in that time Piling.
Sarah Peterson [:Wailing. Thank you, Marlis. Yeah. Yeah. It was dark. It was really traumatic. And Dean sat there quietly holding that space for me. And because of that, I was able to turn to Dean and ask him one of the hardest questions of my life, which was whether or not Marley died instantly based on what he knew.
Sarah Peterson [:And this is honestly the first time I'm ever saying that out loud. I normally just reference it like I was able to ask Dean a question, but today I'm saying it because that was the question, and I needed to know. And had I been afflicted by other people's desire to fix what was happening for me, I don't know that I would have gotten to the space that allowed me to ask such a terrifying question. So the value in just simply being the knees was profound. And although it took an enormous amount of effort for Dean to probably just hold that tragic space, he did it, and it allowed for I don't know if transformation is the right word, but it allowed for something that needed to shift within me to shift. So I will always be so grateful for that, and I don't know if that's how you remember it, Dean.
Dean Sharpe [:Oh, thank you. No. I remember it so clearly, and it was one of the hardest things I ever did. And to keep my mouth shut and to just be present and open and to manage my own, you know, for me, rage at God that this had happened, to manage my own reactivity around it, to manage all the memories of my own daughter's illness. And the fact that we came so close to losing her so many times, there was a lot up for me. And to sit with it all and not get overwhelmed and not get up and leave, either physically or emotionally, was tough.
Sarah Peterson [:I bet.
Dean Sharpe [:And, it was one of the greatest privileges of my life.
Marlis Beier [:Oh, thank you.
Dean Sharpe [:You're welcome.
Sarah Peterson [:It was a life changing moment occurring amidst a really big life changing moment. And when I, at the beginning, said that these 2 have very much shaped the trajectory of my grief experience, That was day 1, you guys. That was day 1. So to think of all the other times that have stacked up since then where you have been able to provide that support that we're talking and we're teaching you about here today is I mean, it's you can't count them. There's been so many times. You're really good at it.
Dean Sharpe [:Thank you.
Marlis Beier [:Well, thank you.
Sarah Peterson [:Can I feel like maybe you love me?
Dean Sharpe [:Oh, probably we do.
Sarah Peterson [:I love you. What do you wanna say?
Marlis Beier [:I just was gonna go from the sublime to the mundane and say, please don't ask a griever. What can I do?
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you. I just That's a great segue. What should we ask our grievers?
Marlis Beier [:Can I bring you a casserole?
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Marlis Beier [:Do you like vegetarian, or would you rather have it just be meat?
Sarah Peterson [:Have you eaten?
Marlis Beier [:Well, let's start there.
Marlis Beier [:No. I mean, you can just presume they're not eating.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Marlis Beier [:But cooking is just out of the question. Fast food is horrible. So, I mean, I would ask, would you like a salad?
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm. Something in your shake.
Marlis Beier [:A bowl of fruit cut up because they're not gonna cut it up.
Sarah Peterson [:And, honestly, I even think people fed me at times. They did. They did. They fed me just with the food to my mouth. Yes.
Marlis Beier [:Mhmm. Wow. So we would have chewed for you.
Sarah Peterson [:I know. But such a gift. And, honestly, to the listeners, we realize that most people are not experiencing grief with this level of support. So if you can walk away as a supporter and say, I can do that, we're building this web of support that doesn't actually currently exist for most people in the US at least, right, or maybe across the world. So what part of this can you walk away and say, oh, yeah. I can do that. What other questions should and could supporters ask grievers? You had said, are you sleeping?
Marlis Beier [:I you know, I just have to segue from your comment to the level of death and grief denial that we have in our culture, And that is why we don't have those support circles because people haven't, don't know, aren't able to access their own grief. And if there were anything, I would hope it's that everyone listening would begin to do a life review of the real griefs that they've had in their life. And, you know, how have they learned from them? How have they integrated them? How is it that that grief informs who you are? And how can that grief help you provide empathy for anyone else in grief? Because if you're able to access your own grief and think about when it felt like your world completely fell apart, what would have supported you then? And ask, would that be something that would support you now? That's what I would ask.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. We're kinda back to understanding your story. Right? Yeah. Understand your story.
Marlis Beier [:That's called being conscious. Wow. Woah. And we are all unconscious It's true. In so many ways that the whole journey is, how can I learn to become more conscious? And the greatest gift of the journey of becoming more conscious is that you keep, I keep figuring out more and more, it's actually not about me. Oh. It's about us. Yeah.
Marlis Beier [:And, you know, grief, it's not your grief or my grief, but it's our grief.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, I think that's I often come back to this as an illustration of that. You know, you'll lose somebody you love dearly, and we end up often grieving behind closed doors, isolated alone. You know, the 5 day bereavement period is up, so good luck back at it. And then somebody like a superstar dies who none of us have ever met, and the people pour into the streets because there's this cultural permission to grieve. And what if we could inject that cultural permission into our own family systems and friend circles and communities? And, you know, that's what, with Clear Morning, we're really trying to do here. So other questions I think that Grievers could maybe handle is or what I do anyway is, how's today? Because I already know the answer to how are you. So how's today? Or I'm so glad to see you. Was it hard to get here? That's one I use a lot in the office.
Sarah Peterson [:Was it hard to get here today? You know, it's an opening, but there's no reason to lie to that question. And I think it mitigates part of my story that I'm always worried about, right, with the guilt around not being honoring my deep sadness. Are there any other questions that we could prepare people, prepare supporters with to avoid the standard how are you? Any that you guys can think of? Instead of how are you, how's today, was it hard to get here, Are you hungry? Are you eating? Are you sleeping?
Marlis Beier [:The I mean, those are my 2 favorites.
Sarah Peterson [:Great. Dean, any last ones you think we've missed? No. Okay. We'll start there.
Dean Sharpe [:You know, this may be going back a bit to where we were a few minutes ago, but I'll just bring it up. If in fact, the place we're going with this is coming to a new relationship with reality that this person is no longer in your life, is the recognition of having the reality supported. So, you know, in Ireland where somebody dies and there's a wake and everyone in the neighborhood. I mean, 300 people might show up at your house, and every person who walks into that house finds the person who's in grief and shakes their hand and says, I'm sorry for your troubles. What gets heard in that handshake, and I'm sorry for your troubles, is a reinforcement of the reality of the loss that the person has died. And in some ways, it helps to by having the reality supported in the milieu, helps move people out of pure denial and into working with it. And that's not to say that you need to say something like that. But there is a place where ritual often will support that reality.
Dean Sharpe [:And I think that's what a funeral does. And in our culture, we don't have funerals anymore. We have celebrations of life and those occur 9 months after the death. Because God forbid that we have any kind of a real conversation on day 2 or day 3.
Sarah Peterson [:We have to wait for the weather to warm up.
Dean Sharpe [:Yeah. We have to wait for the weather to warm up, and we gotta make it so that nobody really cries when they look at all the baby pictures. And in our death denying culture, the fact that we don't just hold space with the reality. I mean, when I hold space, I'm holding space knowing that that person has died, and that we are embarking upon a long process. And for me as a supporter to be aware that this is a longer commitment and it's a commitment to the truth all the way along, I think, is important. I mean, and it's not giving advice and it's not, you know
Sarah Peterson [:No. I can't agree more. That's something I often say to grievers is the only thing you get to do is live in this reality in the most meaningful way. And that is an evolution over time, and you hope that your supporters are signing up to assist and be along with you for that evolution because, boy, it is an evolution. And, yeah, that's all we get, live in this actual reality in the most meaningful way. Well, the takeaways for me today were that you guys are awesome, and I'm really glad we're doing this podcast, and I hope that our listeners will come back for another episode. We will be doling these out weekly. And, you know, if if anything today you learned as a Griever that you're doing it just the best you can, and that's perfectly fine because we're all gonna do it a little bit differently or a lot differently.
Sarah Peterson [:And if you could pick up a little tool about learning what your goal is and how to strategize your experience in the world based on who your audience is so that you're protected as a person, as a griever, as a fragile human, we would be glad for that. Right?
Marlis Beier [:Absolutely. Yes.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes. And as a supporter, if all you heard today was I have permission to simply be the knees, I have permission to simply be the person sitting there willing to not walk away, not say anything, and hold space for something that's really uncomfortable, we would also be glad for that. Right? I'm Sarah, and I've got my dear friends, Marla and Dean, here with me. We hope today's episode gave you insight, support, or a reminder that you're free to grieve in your own way. Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss.
Sarah Peterson [:Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
