Episode 14
How Grievers and Supporters Keep Moving Forward by Setting Boundaries -14
In Part 2 of our forgiveness series (continuing from Episode 13), host Sarah Peterson, LCSW, is joined again by Dr. Marlis Beier and Dr. Dean Sharpe to explore what happens after forgiveness is offered—or withheld. Together, they explore the emotional aftermath of strained relationships, grief, and the complexity of healing. From the “grief ring theory” to the role of boundaries and the challenge of forgiving without an apology, this episode offers heartfelt insights and practical wisdom. Whether you're grieving, supporting someone who is, or wrestling with self-forgiveness, this conversation invites you to reflect on what it means to move forward when forgiveness feels incomplete.
Sarah Peterson is a licensed clinical social worker with over 13 years of experience in medical social work, hospice care and in private practice. As the founder of Clear Mourning, a nonprofit organization dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through innovation, support, and awareness, Sarah brings a deep understanding of grief and loss to her work. Her personal experiences, including the tragic loss of her two-year-old daughter and father, have profoundly shaped her mission to provide compassionate support to others navigating grief.
Sarah holds a Master of Social Work from Portland State University and has extensive experience in both private practice and nonprofit leadership. She also serves as an adjunct instructor at Portland State, runs her own private practice, and provides supervision for licensure candidates.
Dean Sharpe trained as a general surgeon and worked in private practice from 1980 to2002. His interests expanded and in 1994 he earned a master’s degree in health administration, becoming the first Vice President of Medical Affairs at St. Charles Medical Center. He shared this position with his surgical practice until 2002 when he became a full-time administrator. Informatics and computerized medical records arrived, and he facilitated that change at St. Charles from 2004 to 2006 as VP Clinical Informatics. In his two administrative jobs, relationship and change facilitation were his major roles.
His passion as facilitator and educator led to helping design and facilitate “People Centered Teams”, an organizational and personal seminar beginning 1992. The program grew from St. Charles to national, impacting the lives of over 5000 participants. He helped design and teach Death and Dying workshops at St. Charles in the 90’s with the goal that caregivers would become more comfortable with their own mortality as well as their patients. He believes the physician’s role is to facilitate the relationship between patients and their illness, which allows healing, regardless of physical cure. Teaching the Sacred Art of Living Community seminars are a natural extension of Dean’s interests because of the wedding of psychological and spiritual aspects of the inward journey. He has facilitated Healing the Healers seminars since 2008. Starting in 2017 he has facilitated with his wife the 10-month track (part of a program called Anamcara second year) Soul of Wellness: The course focuses on the lifelong questions “Who are you and what do you want? He is married to Marlis Beier, has two daughters and three grandsons. He lives in Bend, Oregon and enjoys cooking, skiing, hiking, gardening, traveling and being with his family.
Marlis Beier started her professional career in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Bend, Oregon. She found gratification accompanying patients facing life transitions. She learned about grief when her best friend, brother and beloved patients died. Her chronically ill daughter asked her to help her die at age 5. Grief comes not with just the loss of someone but also loss of identity and ability. The diagnosis of MS meant repeated grieving loss of ability and with time, her identity as practicing physician. She found similar gratification volunteering in hospice being with the dying. That’s where she met Sarah. Their deep friendship held space for Sarah as she grieves the tragic loss of her daughter Marley at age 2 from a drunk driver on a Sunday morning.
Marlis has been a spiritual seeker from an early age, learning from many traditions and teachers. She has become a mentor to many through teaching at hospice and the Sacred Art of Living Center. Although she teaches many diverse subjects, her intention is transformation of suffering. Her greatest love is her family, including husband Dean Sharpe, M.D., two daughters, Marissa and Anneliese, and grandsons Thielsen, Sawyer and Kepler. The saga of Anneliese’s health challenges since age one inspired her to become a better doctor, mother and companion to anyone facing illness or challenge.
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Transcript
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Sarah Peterson [:Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real, honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Morning. I'm often joined by two incredible guests, Doctor. Marlis Beier and Doctor. Dean Sharpe, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's walk through this journey together. Okay. Welcome back.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Thank you.
Sarah Peterson [:Glad to have you guys back to do part two of our forgiveness topic, forgiveness and grief, which has many different facets and layers and subheadings, whether or not you're forgiving the person who's gone, forgiving the people who still remain, forgiving the griever for acting grievously, or the man who perpetrated against your family and ended the life of somebody. There's a lot of different forgiveness avenues, and there's no way for us to cover them all, but we're trying to hit the ones that we think are probably the common colds of these issues. Right? So last time we talked about what it's like to forgive beyond the grave. Do you feel like we missed anything there? I mean, obviously, we didn't say everything there is to be said, but I think our message was good. Yep. Okay. And today, we just wanna be able to touch on what it's like to forgive your griever or forgive your supporter. Because oftentimes, the grievers don't know what's going on and might say and do things that are out of character or hurtful even.
Sarah Peterson [:And oftentimes, the supporters are very clueless, befuddled, doing their best, not knowing what to do, and make mistakes. And so in these very tender times for both sides, it's hard to think of forgiveness. And I just wanted to unpack that a little bit from the backpack because that's what's going on out there.
Marlis Beier [:A lot. A lot. Because we, as a culture I mean, and that's part of why we formed Clear Morning is to change the culture of grief because we don't grow up knowing how to grieve, and we haven't grown up knowing how to be with grief or grievers. So we're inept as a society. And all of us, I mean, we kinda feel like, oh my gosh. I don't even know what to say. I don't even know what to do. And then as a griever, when you are in the pit of despair And then some people, like, they don't even know what to say, and that feels really hard.
Marlis Beier [:And then there are people who say really stupid things, and that feels really hard. And how is it that we can just have compassion for each other in not knowing how to grieve and not knowing how to support grief? But the only way we are going to evolve as a culture and become better at this process of grieving is to talk about it.
Sarah Peterson [:Listen to this podcast?
Marlis Beier [:Listen to this podcast. That's fine. And just keep increasing your awareness of what the process is.
Sarah Peterson [:When I hear, as the griever, to have compassion for the supporters, sometimes I don't know that there's that capacity in those moments. And so as the Unreasonable expectation. Definitely unreasonable expectation for a griever to show up with extra compassion for other people. And maybe in those moments, the griever, you have compassion for yourself for having this visceral reaction to what the supporter did or didn't do, and the supporter having self compassion for not knowing how badly you screwed up or that you were doing your best or that you're not gonna make that mistake again, and it's okay. Because there is no manual for this. Well, actually, there is one on our website called the grief supporters manual, but in the big picture, you're gonna screw up even if you have that manual in your pocket because you're gonna say things driven by your own discomfort that are gonna tap that string for the griever. Dean?
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Yeah. For sure. I think one of the key things around being the supporter is to not get trapped in the place where your own discomfort with how hard this is drives you to say something or try to do something that you think is gonna fix things because it's not fixable. And all that can happen is that you walk and accompany the other in however they would like to be accompanied and allow their own healing process to occur because it's theirs. Yeah. I think there's this huge place where it's really important to continue to recognize what in the process belongs to you and what belongs to the other person and to keep those separate. It's not to say you're not empathetic, you're not compassionate, you're not present, but you're also not if you're accompanying the person who's grieving, you are not doing the grieving except for that part which evokes for you places in your life where you've grieved before. And then that's your work to do.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I often find that people believe that in order to be empathetic, you must hop into the shoes of the person, which I just resist and reject that because then suddenly it's you in the shoes, and we wanna let this other person stay in their own shoes. And so what does it mean to let them stay in their own shoes that this is not happening to you? So don't respond like it's happening to you, And instead, just simply turn toward the discomfort instead of away from.
Marlis Beier [:So we're asking this is a big ask for both the griever and the supporter to just be willing to be in the space of the what is, the grief. And the supporter is, coming without an agenda. And yet, what we're talking about here is forgiveness of those of us who don't have the skills and screw it up. Yeah. You're right. Because both the griever, I'm deepened in my pit, and this person's trying to interrupt me, and it's hard not to be annoyed.
Marlis Beier [:And then I think that for the griever, the answer to grieve is grief. It's just really to trust that your own heart will lead you. And when you feel like someone is not supporting you, forgiveness is the easiest way to just say, that's not working for me. I need you to be different in some way.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And or boundaries and or things, but to create that same sense of freedom we talked about in all the other ways of forgiveness around somehow not allowing this person's maneuver that's hurt you to complicate your grief process. Like, that's the goal. I remember one conversation with somebody who I love and adore and who love and adores me, and the question was, Sarah, how are you? And I said, I need you to stop asking me how am I. The answer is terrible. I am terrible. Stop asking me that. And the response was, wow.
Sarah Peterson [:You are such an asshole. I think both those things were fair. Right? Because both people were showing up vulnerable. Both people were doing their best. I know I was an asshole. I was really not doing well. I didn't wanna answer that question anymore, and I didn't have the bandwidth or the mental fortitude to soften the edges of what I needed to say. This person felt vulnerable, worried about me, scared about asking the question, and then was had their hand slapped.
Sarah Peterson [:Their head cut off. Hands on the neck. Yeah. Back to hands on the neck.
Marlis Beier [:And so how but that is a great example of forgiveness. Yeah. I mean, really a great example of forgiveness because the supporter is our routine social conversation is going to come out. And if there were ever a time that it doesn't apply, like, how are you? Are you kidding if I can just stop barfing or if I could just take a breath? I mean, it's so physically intense grief that, you know, how are you is on such a superficial level. It's like you are on two different planets. Yep. And, you know, at the same time, you wanna maintain the relationship. So I guess it's one of those times when each time you maintain the relationship.
Marlis Beier [:So I guess it's one of those times when each time you have to pick what's more important, the issue or the relationship, and the relationship is really gonna be a longer period of time than just this moment when they screw up.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I think then the willingness to apologize, ask for forgiveness. And if you don't know what to say, my gosh. If I could have had people that didn't know what to say to me, please forgive me. I don't know what to say, versus dumb thing, that I'm just gonna use to make air move through my body so I feel better. I mean, that would have saved a lot of trouble, I think, on both ends.
Marlis Beier [:Oh my god. That's authentic truth.
Sarah Peterson [:Please forgive me. I don't know what to say. I don't either. There are no words. But that's the authenticity of that grief moment.
Marlis Beier [:And what would it be like if we made as the grief supporter comment, can I just sit and breathe with you for a moment?
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Absolutely. That can be done. That's really not that hard.
Marlis Beier [:No. But and that really is all you can do, because she sure as hell can't make it better.
Sarah Peterson [:No. Gosh. Isn't it interesting what reveals itself during our podcast recordings each time? I think we all have some sort of revelation about our own process, don't you? Because right now, I'm just sitting here going, man, I gotta forgive a lot of supporters who screwed it up. Oh. Yeah. They don't rob me of my daily joy, but they've certainly robbed me of the joy of that relationship. They've certainly changed my ability to trust and be with that relationship. And maybe I don't need that relationship.
Sarah Peterson [:That's fine. But there is energy being consumed by me re rejecting the relationship because of how they acted as a supporter.
Marlis Beier [:Yeah. You're still kinda holding on to Their neck. That was stupid.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm still hanging on to their neck.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Well, and people will say incredibly stupid things.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:So I mean, incredibly stupid things. And it comes from deep concern for of the supporter, deep concern for the grief of the griever, but also that comes out of how painful it is for the support person to see the person they care about in such deep suffering.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:And the desire is, my god, this is so horrible. What can I say that's gonna make it better? And the problem is there's nothing you can say that's gonna make it better. I mean, really, that any attempt you make to try to fix it is gonna come out as advice or as something not useful. Not useful.
Marlis Beier [:Attitude.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:The only thing that's useful is to, like, show up in vulnerability, and I I don't have any idea what to say or do right now. I'm just here.
Marlis Beier [:In this moment, I am suddenly finding compassion for oncologists who will not tell the truth to their dying patients. Mhmm. Because they feel so powerless. They feel like they care about their patient. I mean, it's actually not all bad, Marlis.
Sarah Peterson [:Another big reveal here at the podcast table. Yeah. It's happening live.
Marlis Beier [:Yeah. No. They actually do care about their patient and it's so difficult for them to feel the powerlessness of they can't do anything more that is kind and or appropriate to treat the cancer for this condition.
Sarah Peterson [:And I mean, I guess I can kind of compare this to when people come to me for grief counseling. Like, they are looking for a fix. Like, a physician's job is to fix. Right? Right. And now they've failed at fixing.
Marlis Beier [:Other than obstetrics, I can guarantee you I never left a baby in.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. Good. Good.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:No. No. You see, you're taking way too much control here. Yeah. The reality is that there is no baby that gets left in whatever you do.
Sarah Peterson [:But, you know, when people come to sit on the couch in my office for grief counseling, I do think they have this idea that somehow I'm going to help them fix it. I mean, try charting. Can't do much. Right? Because what can I do? I mean, yeah, I've got helpful hints and tricks and tips to get through the next ten minutes. I can help you look at this from a different lens here and there maybe, but not I can't take it away.
Marlis Beier [:No. Don't want to.
Sarah Peterson [:There's nothing I could do to take it away. There's nothing I could do to make it go more quickly. There's nothing I can do to take it away.
Marlis Beier [:No.
Sarah Peterson [:Is it? Well, there are people who want me to take it. Yeah. Oh, there are people who are like, I'm paying you money to take it.
Marlis Beier [:Okay. Okay. But that's back to our culture.
Sarah Peterson [:That's back to our culture.
Marlis Beier [:No. It really is our culture that thinks we shouldn't have emotions like grief.
Sarah Peterson [:So can we forgive? And Who do we need to forgive here? Is it, like, forgive Queen Victoria? Queen Victoria, for sure.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Who you have to forgive or what you have to forgive is, I mean, God, the universe, the human condition, impermanence, and reality we all live in, that somehow or another, we would like some things to never change, so we'd never have to say goodbye to them. And yet, on the other hand, we have this whole list of things we just can't wait till they go away or change into something because we're really working for them to become something different. Well, the reality is you cannot have impermanence in one dimension and not in the other.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:And so there's this huge place where, as human beings, we need to come to relationship with the fact that we're not in control of this stuff, and we are essentially helpless in the face of all of this. And so the oncologist, there's a ton they can do. There's many cancers that they can revert into a chronic state and manage for periods of time. We all pray for more time in our lives and especially when we come towards the ends of our lives and we're undergoing chemotherapy or whatever, we pray, oh, if I could only have some more time, I wanna see my grandchild get married or see my ninetieth birthday or whatever it is.
Marlis Beier [:I think So my kids grow up?
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Yeah. My kids grow up. If I look back at my life and the number of times it might have come to an end and didn't, I have to say that maybe the current time I'm living is the more time I can get.
Sarah Peterson [:Is the more time. Mhmm.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:And that is the universe or God or Jesus or Brahma saying, you got some more time, and here it is.
Sarah Peterson [:And here it is.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:And be thankful for that gift. Yeah. And so the place we get trapped is the place where we wanna be swimming upstream against the flow of where things are going. And that's not to say that you don't wanna continue to be compassionate and have a desire to make things better, but what you imagine better might be might not necessarily be
Sarah Peterson [:Achievable.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Ultimately either achievable Or what actually may not actually be better. I mean, honestly, there are some lives where more time just for more time is not better. No. No. And so the first forgiveness or the first letting go is letting go of unrealistic expectations of how it is. And then to recognize that as one human being to another, what we have to offer each other is a hand around their shoulder and to walk shoulder to shoulder, or or to sit and look into each other's eyes and see compassion and to recognize that you're not alone. None of us are alone in suffering, that that all of the suffering any of us is doing has been suffered before by other human beings.
Sarah Peterson [:It's crazy what comfort that can bring. I mean, it's just like it's so easy in grief to think it's only me that's had it this bad, and that's not true.
Marlis Beier [:No.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, it is me, of course. Moment. Me, at this moment, it's the worst.
Marlis Beier [:So me, I mean, I'm gonna go for the jugular here and name the central myth in our culture, and that is that death is punishment. If you go back to the original story of the Garden of Eden and that Adam and Eve, according to the Christian version, or left, and that was original sin. And so we are being punished by death. And so people feel punished when they either suffer a loss or whatever. And it just isn't the way that I ever learned that. But that's growing up Jewish, but it's not a punishment. It's a description.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I wanna be careful as a supporter. If your griever is feeling punished, just kinda let them. This is not an opportunity to tell them that they're wrong for feeling punished because when Marley died, I'm like, what better of a person could I be? I'm a great mom, a hospice social worker. I don't cheat and lie and steal. Like, why did this happen to me? And although now I definitely believe I did not earn it, this was not a punishment, that was part of my process of letting go of this.
Marlis Beier [:Can you see how the supporter, instead of going you just allow the space for that Yeah. But there's like, no, you're not, Or there's a, of course, you feel that way.
Sarah Peterson [:Of course, you feel that way is the right thing to say.
Marlis Beier [:Well, of course, you feel that way.
Sarah Peterson [:Of course, you feel that way.
Marlis Beier [:Because that is the human journey. It's a description. Yes. It's not a punishment.
Sarah Peterson [:And so if you are the griever and your supporter is saying something terrible to you, what do you think the griever should say? Stop. Stop. Please stop.
Marlis Beier [:I mean, you know, you can respond just like you would as a mother. I love you, and my our relationship is important to me, and what you're saying right now is really not helpful.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. Do you hear this, Grievers? You have permission to stop No. No. No. No. No. Order from putting your hands on their neck. Take your hands back.
Sarah Peterson [:Stop them. Save them. Help them save themselves. You are allowed to have boundaries in the support you're receiving. You are allowed as a grieve or to say that approach does not work for me. It is not helping. It's actually making my process harder. Here's why or not.
Sarah Peterson [:You don't have to explain or defend yourself. But in certain levels of relationship, I think this explanation can be a wonderful bid for connection and growth. Yeah.
Marlis Beier [:Can you just be here with me? Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Can you just be here with me?
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Well and I think people grieve at different rates and have different paths, and so what they have to get through, are gonna be different levels. And so there's not only the part where the griever needs to do the work with the person who is the support, but the person who is support I mean, sometimes, especially spouses, for example, who have suffered the same loss, one person in the couple's grief process may move at a different rate than the other person's. And there's a place where relationships often fall apart in the midst of grieving, which occurs at different rates so that one person's grief processes reaches a place of more healing, and they're looking at the person who is spending more time. And there's like, could you get over this? Could we move on? Could we come back to having a relationship like we used to or whatever with some sort of an ex expectation that things would be the same. So there's also a forgiveness of the support person or the person who becomes a support person if it's a spouse who has come farther or it's not their specific grief like the parent of a spouse dies. It's not their specific grief, but they end up, yes, a support person. You know? It's like, come on. It's been three years.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Could we have a relationship and go out to dinner and have a good time together? I'm sick of this.
Sarah Peterson [:And hear that a lot in sessions Yeah. Where one spouse is like, I've just I'm tired of it. I'm just really tired of it. And so I think, yeah, starting to forgive yourself for being tired of it because I think that comes with inherent guilt. Like, something's wrong with you for being tired of it. It is exhausting. It's exhausting. To be tired of it.
Sarah Peterson [:No way. You are allowed to be tired of it. And the most important thing is that you you talk about it, and we're trying to get you to talk about it
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:In a way that promotes growth and connection and not disconnection and isolation. And that's really hard, and it can be really scary because sometimes we're asking somebody to do something we're not sure if they can do it, like go to dinner.
Marlis Beier [:Well and can we go back to, like, the basic truth that when human beings attempt to connect, 66% of the time, they fail? Yeah. You only manage to connect 33% of the time? Like, what you intended to say is what they heard, and you feel connected by what you said. So that you have to have enormous self compassion when you recognize that both you and whoever your accompaniment is will say something disconnecting two thirds of the time.
Sarah Peterson [:Two thirds of the time. That's a lot. Okay. So if you're the supporter and you hear that's not working for me, what should the supporter say? I'm sorry. I love this. Thank you for telling me.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:And thank you for telling me.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm really glad to know that.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Can you tell me what you might need?
Sarah Peterson [:Need. Enhancing. Yeah. What would work?
Dean Sharpe, MD [:And you have to be open to the fact that they sometimes don't even know.
Sarah Peterson [:That, or they might ask for something you don't wanna give. And, like, I need you to be available all night long for emergency phone calls. Yeah. I can't do that. That is also okay. Like, let's work with the facts, though, not the stories. And I think supporters think that they aren't allowed to have boundaries. They're not allowed to feel exhausted by it.
Sarah Peterson [:They're not allowed to say, I'm not picking up the phone at 3AM. I need my sleep. I can't do it. I've got the kids. Blah blah blah. And you are. You have to. And this concept is called the grief ring theory, and that's what this makes me think of.
Sarah Peterson [:It's like the center of the rings, like the target of bull's eye, is the person who the terrible thing has happened to. So in this case, I'll just say it's me. And in my most inner circle are the people who have met criteria, which means they are able and willing to simply pour support in. I am not there to support them. They are there to support me. My job as the center is to dump out. That's it. And then, you know, as the rings go out, we kind of have more distance from those people.
Sarah Peterson [:Maybe it's your work people, maybe it's your neighbors, etcetera. But the bottom line is everybody on your map has to meet criteria, which means they are able and willing to just simply dump in support. Now as a supporter, I wanna give you permission to have your map where you are the person Enter. That the terrible thing has happened to. Your friend, your loved one, somebody you really care about has suffered a loss. It affects you. So as the supporter who is in your inner ring, turn the page. You're allowed to be at the center.
Sarah Peterson [:And I always think about this with my friend Nora, especially, like, I remember asking her, god. How did you do it? I mean, I was really hard to take care of at times. And she said, well, I come home, and Jared was there, or this person would check-in with me. And if you listen to that episode, you hear us talk about that because she had her own map. You as the supporter are also allowed to be at the center of the map. Does that make sense? Of some map. Of some map. But you get to turn the page, but it's not amidst your time with the griever.
Sarah Peterson [:When you're with the griever, who's at the center at the griever? Okay. Now I'm gonna turn the page. I'm at the center. We know because it just it's a different setup. Right? Now I feel like I'm yelling at everybody.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:No. No. No. It's absolutely correct.
Marlis Beier [:Okay. No. I think about blog I read this last weekend about each one of us on in the inside, in like our amygdala, is a little baby, this beautiful, innocent, vulnerable, dependent, needy, wanting, needing care, 20 baby, and no one can provide that. And so what we need to do is take care of our own baby, and that is the center of each one of our circle to figure out how can we acknowledge that there is still this part of us that all of our wanting and all of our rejecting still comes from that very, very early experience, and the only person who can really take care of that baby as with an awareness is us. Which is keeping track of your circle.
Sarah Peterson [:Yep. Exactly. Keeping track of your circle. And there's not this mandatory, if I'm on your map, you're on my map. No. I mean, there's people in my life who I know I'm very close to the center of their circle as a support person because I meet criteria, and maybe they aren't on my map because they haven't been able to meet criteria, which doesn't mean I love them differently or less. In the grief experience, though, that's an unrealistic expectation of this person. So why would I do it? It causes more hurt, more pain, more damage, more forgiveness, which come on already with the forgiveness.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, like your children. I like my children. Exactly. They're not on They are not. Their job is not to pour in. No. No. No.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm certainly on their map.
Marlis Beier [:Yes. Yes. Yes.
Sarah Peterson [:Glad to be. You know, the other thing I feel like we missed is the four things that matter most, And I think we could have brought it up at the last episode around forgiveness for sure, beyond the grave, but also at any point for forgiveness. And it's I love you. I'm sorry. Thank you. I forgive you. And I think there is so much there. I mean, it's just so rich.
Sarah Peterson [:And I will role play that with clients, you know, if we're dealing with a forgiveness issue, especially with somebody who's passed away. What do you need to say? Why do you love them? What are you sorry for? What are you thankful for? And even if it's almost manufactured, like, I love you because you're a human. I'm sorry because I'm not perfect. I forgive you because you're not perfect, or you know not how terrible you are. You know? We can all and thank you for, what, teaching me something? Teaching me how to have boundaries. Thank you for pushing me to learn how to say no. I don't know. Like, it's available for all relationships, I think.
Sarah Peterson [:All. And it can be a mantra. Okay. Have we left anything out so far that we must share?
Dean Sharpe, MD [:I was just gonna say you know, double down on what you were saying about the support person having their own map and their own support. I found that really important when both Marlys and I journeyed with Annalisa over all the years. There were times when one of us was doing better than the other, and we could be support for each other. And there were times when we were both melted down simultaneously, and I think we needed to find support sometimes even outside of just the two of us
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:In order for that to happen. I for sure find now as I journey with Marlys and and her MS and the times when she's not doing well and I'm the support person with her grief around the losses that she's undergoing, where I need other people that I can go and sit with, and I can be the center
Sarah Peterson [:You can be the center.
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Of that circle, and they'll listen to my process. And I can say the things that I'm afraid to say to Marlys because they would only burden her with what I'm going through, whereas it's bad. Now she would say she loves to hear the things that, you know, I'm going through, so I'm willing to share a lot of that. But I think it's slightly different.
Sarah Peterson [:Absolutely. I'm so proud of you. Aw. Cute. Yeah. So cute. And I think that the more we can encourage supporters to identify their own map and allow themselves to be the person that the terrible thing has happened to, the more freedom there is for the forgiveness because I do think that also prevents resentment and anger toward even the griever. Like, it's always about you, or every time I'm only getting this.
Sarah Peterson [:You know? I mean, all of that is really human. And so as a supporter, if you can look at yourself sometimes as the person who suffered the loss All of us. I know. But I don't know what people don't know that. That's why we're doing this.
Marlis Beier [:Okay. Good. Alright. Everyone. Everyone. You all. You all matter. You all are at the center.
Marlis Beier [:Yeah. I mean, everyone has had really hard things happen. And to be willing to actually grieve those really hard things in your life, find your own freedom, equanimity, and you will be a much better support.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I used to teach this workshop where we would leave about fifteen minutes for this grief ring theory and ask participants to just consider who's on their map, etcetera. And it would always go to forty five minutes because people would have epiphanies about how they've been barking up the wrong tree, how this person or that person actually doesn't meet criteria, and they're still doing their best, and we don't have to be upset with them about it. But that it was fostering a sense of angst and resentment all the time because this person didn't meet criteria. They weren't capable of dumping in or holding space. And so if you can pause and think about who's on your map by default or intentionally, I think there's opportunity for more freedom there. Awareness. Awareness.
Sarah Peterson [:There we go. Alright. Well, thanks, everybody. Thank you for being here, you guys. My favorite guests. Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected.
Sarah Peterson [:We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
