Episode 18
The Gift of Being Heard: Grief, Therapy, and True Connection -18
On this episode of Enduring Grief, host Sarah Peterson, joined by special guest Shanan Kelley, explores the real-life complexities of navigating loss in our fast-paced world. Listen as they address topics like the power of listening, the underestimated skill-building needed for grief, and why being “kinder to yourself” might be among the most important healing practices. The conversation weaves through moments of miscommunication, the challenge of changing your mind in relationships, and how the natural world can offer solace—even if it’s just a bouquet of flowers.
If you’re interested in authentic grief stories, mental health strategies, individual therapy experiences, and real advice on supporting yourself or a loved one through hard times, this episode is for you. Join us for honest insights and practical guidance that don’t shy away from uncomfortable truths but always point toward hope.
Shanan Kelley is a writer, storyteller, and creativity coach known for her ability to infuse humor and heart into meaningful conversations. As a seasoned speaker and workshop leader, Shanan is dedicated to helping people embrace their authentic selves through self-expression and resilience. Her work invites audiences to explore the deep and often messy experiences of being human—grief, joy, disappointment, and everything in between—with honesty and compassion.
When she’s not sharing her wisdom on podcasts or stages, Shanan creates and facilitates workshops that help individuals connect to their creative voices and embrace self-compassion as a daily practice.
Sarah Peterson is a licensed clinical social worker with over 13 years of experience in medical social work, hospice care and in private practice. As the founder of Clear Mourning, a nonprofit organization dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through innovation, support, and awareness, Sarah brings a deep understanding of grief and loss to her work. Her personal experiences, including the tragic loss of her two-year-old daughter and father, have profoundly shaped her mission to provide compassionate support to others navigating grief.
Sarah holds a Master of Social Work from Portland State University and has extensive experience in both private practice and nonprofit leadership. She also serves as an adjunct instructor at Portland State, runs her own private practice, and provides supervision for licensure candidates.
Connect with Sarah:
✅ Instagram:
✅ Official Website:
Follow us on Instagram: @ClearMourning
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Transcript
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Sarah Peterson [:Welcome to Enduring Grief, Healing Practices and True Stories of Living After Loss, where we dive into real, honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Mourning. I'm often joined by two incredible guests, Dr. Marlis Beier and Dr. Dean Sharpe, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's walk through this journey together.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay, welcome back, everybody, and mostly welcome back Shanan Kelley, one of my favorite guests.
Shanan Kelley [:Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I was really looking forward to this.
Sarah Peterson [:I am, too. And, you know, ever since our last episode of which if you haven't heard it, go back to season one, the episode with Shanan Kelley, because it was one of my favorites for sure. And we got a lot of listener feedback about it. And you know what? We can take the feedback.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, we can take the feedback.
Sarah Peterson [:Because it was all day.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, we will take good feedback.
Sarah Peterson [:We will take good feedback all day.
Shanan Kelley [:I had, like, friends calling me even just recently, like, oh, I didn't realize this was a thing. And then Anya, here's Amulet Studios. Yeah, she's like a breathwork teacher and a death doula. And
Sarah Peterson [:She makes the oil.
Shanan Kelley [:She makes the oil.
Sarah Peterson [:She makes the oil for me.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah I saw their oil.
Shanan Kelley [:The belly oil. And she, like, called. And actually it was so funny because she initially left me a voicemail. She was talking so long it cut off. So then she gave me a voice text. She gave me directions. She's like, listen to the voicemail first and then come over here. I was like, this is amazing.
Sarah Peterson [:That's amazing.
Shanan Kelley [:Multiple voice messaging apps were used.
Sarah Peterson [:That's great because she had to say it. She had to give the feedback.
Shanan Kelley [:She had to give the full feedback. And I am actually very specific about who I ask feedback from and who I really, truly take feedback from in terms of my creative stuff. And, like, she's someone who's so qualified to give, like, really good feedback on this particular set of topics. And so I was, like, super honored. I mean, she's. Yeah
Sarah Peterson [:And did you say anything about me?
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, yeah, no, both of us. She was just like. No, she loved it. She was like, this just totally wasn't on my radar. And she. She's like, all hyped up on it. And I'm like, yeah, it's really good.
Sarah Peterson [:It is really good.
Shanan Kelley [:It's really good.
Sarah Peterson [:Honestly, it's one of the things I think I'm most proud of in all my career.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, I think you should be.
Sarah Peterson [:And I think in a lot of ways it's because I do so much listening that to be able to just actually be the talker feels really nice. And I think that it is a place where my creativity does get to meet my passion, my work passion. Because that does not always intersect for me. And right here at this moment in these podcasts, it is.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, I appreciate that so much. Especially the part about give being given a chance to talk, because I am often moderating and interviewing and asking questions. And I love asking questions and I love listening. And it is one of my top skills. And it's so fun to be asked the questions and talk and share and, like, give people insight into my creative process and what I'm working on. And that is like, it's such an indulgence, it feels like.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, I agree.
Shanan Kelley [:And I think for you to be able to have that creative outlet is so important because like you said in your work, there's no. You're not, like. It's not creative therapy.
Shanan Kelley [:I mean, when I reach out and choke em, or I'm yelling at them.
Shanan Kelley [:Or you're throwing things, glasses shattering, it's creating. I'm like.
Sarah Peterson [:This is creativity.
Shanan Kelley [:What do they call that? Like, performance art?
Sarah Peterson [:Performance therapy.
Shanan Kelley [:Performance art therapy, that's a whole new genre.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. See, we're together and we come up with these new ideas.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, I have something to share with you because I have a video that we made years ago, and it's called fuck you, Huts. It is, I think, performance art therapy. So I'm gonna send you the link to that. Maybe you can put it in the notes.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, I'd love that, the show.
Shanan Kelley [:Because it's just what you're talking about.
Sarah Peterson [:Perfect.
Shanan Kelley [:Very therapeutic.
Sarah Peterson [:By like 4 o' clock, if I've had two caffeinated drinks that day, I'm like, leaning forward in my chair, a little bit of sweat on my brow, and I'm yelling at my clients. You're like, oh, Den, why are you here?
Shanan Kelley [:You came.
Sarah Peterson [:Man up.
Shanon Kelley [:You set the,
Sarah Peterson [:I know you're seven.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, you're like, there's tissues on the table.
Sarah Peterson [:You get one.
Shanan Kelley [:I have to just say, I love therapy. I'm actually in therapy myself now. This is something new since the last time we met. I'd been in therapy before, but this is a new therapist, and I love her. She's really wonderful. We've done some EMDR, and she does internal family systems, and it's been so helpful.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm so glad to hear that.
Shanan Kelley [:That's been so helpful. Yeah, it's so good. And now I just want everyone I know to go, oh, my gosh. Cuz, here's what I'll say about this. Like, I know that our problems are for. There's systemic issues going on that are causing depression and anxiety and grief and all of these things. Right. And also, there's nothing wrong with individual people going to a therapist and upleveling their skills.
Sarah Peterson [:For sure.
Shanan Kelley [:And I'm like, all for it.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, my therapist knows that when I show up, I'm going to talk for exactly 52 minutes, and then I'm going to give her the one and a half minutes.
Shanan Kelley [:To kind of some feedback.
Sarah Peterson [:Give me some.
Shanan Kelley [:And give you some exercises to do in the meantime.
Sarah Peterson [:Ask one question and we're done.
Shanan Kelley [:My therapist, actually, I was like, wow, Last time we met, we were setting our next point. She's like, actually, let's do this one, because that'll give us a little extra time. And I was like, I am special.
Sarah Peterson [:You are special.
Shanan Kelley [:I am a special one.
Sarah Peterson [:But I think that we also underestimate what it. Like we started this right, Saying it feels good to be the talker. I think we underestimate what it is to be listened to.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, I know. Well, you watch it. I certainly watch it. In my job, people are so thirsty to be heard. And I have clients all the time come in and say, I don't know, I almost canceled today. I don't know what I'm going to talk about. I don't have any major things going on. And I'm like, well, tell me about last Wednesday.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, blah, blah, blah.
Sarah Peterson [:And then it's 50 minutes of this. Because we are so thirsty to be heard in an unapologetic way, which I don't think we get necessarily with our friends and people who love us so much, because there is more of this, like, quid pro quo where when I'm sitting in the chair and I'm getting paid to be here, they don't owe me nothing, you know? They get to just have an unapologetic hour to do whatever.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, I think what you're also tapping into is this, like, large thing that is missing in our communities, and that is there's a lot going on systemically, community wise, statewide, nationwide, around the globe. And we are just going on with our day as if it's fine, everything's fine, like the world's on fire. But I got to go to work. I got to pick up my kids. I got to cook the dinner. And that's all very true. And there is going to be an effect. There is going to be something that needs to be addressed. Right, so.
Shanan Kelley [:And I think to couple with that, the skill of listening is, like, not one that people are excelling at right now. That's my observation.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:Because it does actually take some effort, I think. I think some people are, like, more suited to it than others. I do think that. I think that auditory stuff is very real. And I think when you're out of practice in a skill, you're out of practice. Right. But people are not listening to each other. I mean, like you said, you work with couples.
Shanan Kelley [:Right. And probably, I would think, like, a lot of it is, like, miscommunication.
Sarah Peterson [:There's a lot of that.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:It's like the common cold of relationship dysfunction is. I was trying to say this. You didn't get it.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Either because you weren't listening intentionally.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Or because you were floating off into space. Or because you were so busy about defending your position.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally.
Sarah Peterson [:And to get people to understand that because you set down the defense of your position does not mean that you've lost.
Shanan Kelley [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:I will challenge people over and over to come up with what the currency, like, what is on the line. For you to say, I'm sorry. Sorry to say, I care to be vulnerable so hard. What is on the line over and over, Shanan. It will be. It's a win, lose situation. And that means I've lost.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. I.
Sarah Peterson [:But what did you lose?
Shanan Kelley [:I knew.
Sarah Peterson [:What did you give up?
Shanon Kelley [:Yeah. I know. Right?
Sarah Peterson [:Like a relationship.
Shanan Kelley [:A nice day.
Sarah Peterson [:A nice day. Right.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. No. Totally
Sarah Peterson [:Think in those terms.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, let me give you an example. I'm building a garden right now, and I have these two beautiful beds, and I, like, just got the plants. And so, like, the plants have been in for 36 hours. And one of my puppies, who I love more than life itself, like, dug it up. I mean, she assaulted this beautiful. It is thrashed. And I am, like, I was able to more or less repair it, whatever it's fine. But, like, she doesn't get it.
Shanan Kelley [:She wants to eat the fertilizer. It's made of fish guts. Like, you know, you get it, right? So, like, in her mind, I set that up for her. So this was like, a prime miscommunication. She's like, what are you talking? Like, why are you upset? Also, I suspect with her and this particular issue, she overheard me calling those plants my babies. Oh, there was maybe something there.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, No more babies.
Shanan Kelley [:No more of these. You little. I hear. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:I'll show you what I'm doing.
Shanan Kelley [:Those little bits, she didn't eat them. Just, like, flung them around, messed them up.
Sarah Peterson [:She was teaching you a lesson.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, she was like, don't you dare call.
Sarah Peterson [:Don't you dare.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm your baby.
Sarah Peterson [:It's really interesting, the miscommunication that can occur and then when we think about somebody who's in grief and limited capacity to communicate.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:There's a lot of reading between the lines. And how do we figure out how to read between the lines when we're talking about, like, the community macro grief, you know? We're having wildfire smoke here in May. That's not normal. That causes grief in all the people.
Shanan Kelley [:And anxiety.
Sarah Peterson [:And the people hate it.
Sarah Peterson [:So you know where and how do we read between the lines to create that extra level of compassion for something like that all the way to somebody who's experienced the loss? I don't know.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, again, we talked about this in our last one. It's just like, it is skill building.
Sarah Peterson [:Skill building. Just.
Shanan Kelley [:It is like, you find a skill that you don't have. You sort out where you can get it. You go learn the skill. You practice the skill, you master the skill, then you rinse and repeat. You do this until the day that you're not here anymore. Like, that is it. I'm convinced. And like, I observed a.
Shanan Kelley [:I was like, in a conversation at a birthday party the other day, and this one woman was sharing that her father had passed away suddenly. And, you know, she was talking about. I know you'll appreciate this so much. She was talking about how people be like, well, he's with you all the time. And she was like, fuck you. And I'm like, okay, okay. That's like this interesting communication piece where it's like, of course you feel that way. Of course you feel that way.
Shanan Kelley [:Like, I totally feel that way. Like, I understand that. There's a. Like, I don't. Like my friend Casey who passed in 2020 who I love and miss every single day. I don't think that she's, like, watching me pee. Do you know what I mean? So I don't think she's, like, observing me in my life, But I believe there is a place where we are always together. I can sense that in a way that is beyond, like, my limited capacity of my brain and my human senses.
Shanan Kelley [:And I'm like, I miss her in her body, and I'm, like, mad and sad about it, and I'm, like, miss her when I'm happy, and I miss her when I'm sad, and I miss her when something happens, and I miss her when something bad happens. And, like, it's been five years, and it's still very present.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I suspect that part of that presence is the feeling of her in your life.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. Watching me pee.
Sarah Peterson [:Watching you pee.
Shanan Kelley [:She is actually watching me.
Sarah Peterson [:She's like, you're so good at peeing. And she's like, I have nothing better to do.
Shanan Kelley [:No. She's like, I could not give you any feedback on this pee because it is. You're obviously. Your water intake is just right. Good job.
Sarah Peterson [:Good job. See, she's touching your life right now.
Shanan Kelley [:I also do feel like would find that very funny.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And that is how we, I think, remain connected to the people who are on the other side. Because we are sitting here bringing her into this conversation. We are allowing her to have a voice. I mean, we're giving her the voice. We're telling you what to say, Casey.
Shanan Kelley [:Say it.
Sarah Peterson [:We're scripting it. But that, I think, is one way in which we do remain connected to the other side.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Not because we are, like, there with you in your heart. So you'll feel better. Because it's not always a matter of feeling better. Sometimes it's a wild and offensive reveal of what we're missing.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, it is wild. Like, why do people not get that? Maybe what they're gonna say isn't gonna be the right thing no matter what? So just be like, hey, thanks for sharing this with me.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:Right. Like, I think that's, like, a good thing to have in your pocket.
Sarah Peterson [:Thanks for telling me.
Shanan Kelley [:Also, like, the woman who said that, and I'm not saying she did anything wrong. The woman who was like, he's always with you. Whatever. She lost both of her parents at a young age. And so she knows. She definitely knows. So that was interesting, you know, to witness that. Like, and I think it was fine because we.
Shanan Kelley [:We talked about all of it. Like, this wasn't bad. I want to be really clear, like, this wasn't like a bad interaction, but it was a rich interaction. Because to your point, like, how do we do this better? We would listen.
Sarah Peterson [:And we agree that it is okay to live through the discomfort of not knowing how to do it or fix it or totally better.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally.
Sarah Peterson [:Which is why people say things like they do most of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time it's like, I'm uncomfortable. How are we going to make you feel better? So I've.
Shanan Kelley [:How feel the space? Not used to having empty space. Like people are not comfortable with. Like, you know, like when I'm working with public speaking clients, it's like one second goes by and it's like unbearable for them. I'm like, you gotta get okay with like 1, 2, 3. You know, you've got to like. I also think, like, when someone's making a comment about that, like, it gives you an opportunity to be like, that makes me mad. And it feels good to have that like, righteous aspect of your grief sometimes. And so, I don't know, maybe that's a part of it.
Shanan Kelley [:And like, I can often hear you saying, like, you point out the, you know, people always want to put it like in the past tense. And I often do not want to speak of Casey in the past tense. You know, that doesn't feel correct to me. And so I always hear you talking about that too. So again, like, yeah, we really have to take our, like, current ideas and this I think is across the boards, like, take our current ideas of things, like, off and like, be more open in how we're addressing things. And I guess that's evolution, right?
Sarah Peterson [:It is. And I don't think we're good at it. I think that we. I could rich. It would be because I came up with a 1, 800 number to talk and walk people through changing their mind and like, convincing them that they would survive changing their mind about something that their people who love them would survive, that they themselves would survive. Their ego would be unbruised, all these things. Because I think people are simply just terrified of changing their mind.
Shanan Kelley [:It's such an interesting thing that you're bringing up because I feel like with talking, oftentimes we're talking so much, we're just doubling down on a belief that we hold that we may not even really feel is true. And so like on the one hand, like spoken word and written word is this, like, amazing aspect to being a human that really sets us aside, sets us apart from plants and from animals and such. And then at the same time, it, like, totally messes us up in some ways. I was working with a human design client the other day, and he was talking about how, like, he's so bad at change. And then we continued the conversation. It turns out he's actually really great at change. And I was like, hey, buddy.
Sarah Peterson [:Hey, buddy. But somebody, when you.
Shanan Kelley [:You're, like, telling an untruth about. Exactly.
Sarah Peterson [:Told you. You were not gonna change, and you believed it.
Shanan Kelley [:Or like, maybe the aspect of, like, change being uncomfortable makes you think you're bad at it.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. Cause it wasn't easy.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. It wasn't fun, so I'm bad at it.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. Undo that. No, I think I watch people just cling to ideals and ideas that are so outdated to who they are today for the sake of being too scared to change their mind. Or imagine if, like, you. You make these plans, right? Friday night, I'm going out with the girls. It's going to be great. Friday is a killer day that whoops your ass. So you don't feel like going out with the girls.
Sarah Peterson [:What would happen if we said, I changed my mind. I'm staying home. Hope you have fun. I'm sorry if you're disappointed. That wasn't my intent. I have to change my mind versus I had the longest day. And I have to justify the fact.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:That it's okay for me to change my. Or go anyway.
Shanan Kelley [:Go anyway. And want to injure yourself. Well, I have to tell you, Sarah, if I'm on that group text, I'm gonna celebrate because I love canceled plans. I like to call that a time bonus. It's my favorite thing when people cancel. I'm like, oh, thank God. And actually, it's so funny because I know I'm not the only person who feels that way.
Shanan Kelley [:In fact, a lot of people feel that way. I'm like, that is the state of us.
Sarah Peterson [:That is the state of us.
Shanan Kelley [:That is the state of us.
Sarah Peterson [:I can't. How do we get everybody to feel that way?
Shanan Kelley [:I mean, I think everybody does, but I don't learn not being honest.
Sarah Peterson [:I think some people really.
Shanan Kelley [:Hold on. Yeah, no, that's absolutely true, because I definitely didn't want to go to a concert on Wednesday. I bought the ticket on Wednesday.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:And, like, I was like, maybe this canceled. You know, like, maybe a storm will happen and I can get out of being in a crowd, which I'm, like, so uncomfortable in. And, like, I went to the show, and it was Beautiful. And also, I was yawning at 9. I would have loved to just not. Not gone out that late, you know, I felt like hungover the next day. And I don't even drink. Like.
Sarah Peterson [:I forgot that you're like, what, 87 now?
Shanan Kelley [:Well, I think 99.
Sarah Peterson [:99.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. Pull up the walker. Grandma's ready to go yawning. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:I had much. I hate.
Shanan Kelley [:I got my sneakers on and my elastic waves pants. My foods are shameless muffins. I am an old person inside. Actually, you know what? Okay, this is so funny. I went and visited one of my dear, dear, dear, dearest best friends recently. She was graduating from her master. She got a master's in social work. And so I went to.
Shanan Kelley [:And on my way into town, we went to this woman's house for a sound bath. And we did, like, intuitive stuff with her ahead of time. And she was talking about the relationships that my friend Kamma and I have had in previous lives. And, like, the first one was me to Kamma. And it was. I was her grandpa. And I was like, that feels right.
Sarah Peterson [:That does. You know, I.
Shanan Kelley [:That feels right. I feel that's.
Sarah Peterson [:This is legit. This is legit.
Shanan Kelley [:Like, that is accurate. Can't confirm.
Sarah Peterson [:But imagine having the permission to change your mind, and especially amidst grief. And imagine as a supporter, giving that person the freedom to change their mind. And know in your heart that you might be disappointed, you might be sad, because you were really looking forward to that plan.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally.
Sarah Peterson [:And it's not a reflection of your value and your worth as a person.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:So you don't have to take it all the way to the sole depth of personal.
Shanan Kelley [:No, that's right. And I have an exception because I was speaking to my therapist about this concert, and she was like, what would happen if you didn't go? You know? And I was like, the problem is it's the person that I'm going with. It's going to be unacceptable.
Sarah Peterson [:Unacceptable. It's going to be unacceptable.
Shanan Kelley [:And listen, like, I want to be with my friend. I had another friend who's like, okay, I'm coming into town for one night. We're going to Sting. And I was like, I do not want to do that, but I want to be with my friend, so I'll do that.
Sarah Peterson [:Did you go to Sting?
Shanan Kelley [:No, she ended up not coming. Her. It got canceled.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes.
Shanan Kelley [:Time bonus. Time bonus.
Sarah Peterson [:I went to Sting.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, I bet it was wonderful. I walked.
Sarah Peterson [:I didn't really want to go either.
Shanan Kelley [:But it's like you're like, oh, that ticket.
Sarah Peterson [:And I'm like, Who says no to free tickets to Sting? I mean, it is Sting. Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:I will usually go when the tickets are free.
Sarah Peterson [:And then I heard he went back to his hotel downtown and played for hours in the lobby.
Shanan Kelley [:Come on.
Sarah Peterson [:I know. That would have been more my jam.
Shanan Kelley [:Come on. Sting is so cool. Come on. Someone was like, God, can you believe it? He's like, in his 60s. I'm like, he's 74, man.
Sarah Peterson [:And he's only about 4ft tall. I mean, he's a really small man.
Shanan Kelley [:Wow.
Sarah Peterson [:Not much of a Stinger.
Shanan Kelley [:It's so funny because at the gym.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, right.
Shanan Kelley [:Take that out. Someone at the gym was like, did you know his name is Gordon? And I'm like, that's so interesting. People love sharing that about him. His actual name is Gordon. And then I'm thinking, how did he pick Sting?
Sarah Peterson [:Right?
Shanan Kelley [:And what is my name? Grandpa.
Sarah Peterson [:Grandpa. Paw. Paw.
Shanan Kelley [:Paw. Paw.
Sarah Peterson [:Paw.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, Lord.
Sarah Peterson [:It is, though.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. I'm okay with it.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Why not? Yeah. Embrace it.
Shanan Kelley [:Hottest grandpa in town.
Sarah Peterson [:Hottest grandpa in town. And the fastest grandpa.
Shanan Kelley [:That's right. I am actually quite fast. I think you probably haven't even seen me sprint. But every once in a while.
Sarah Peterson [:Off you go.
Shanan Kelley [:Off I go. If I got the right shoes on and the conditions are correct, I might just hightail it down the block.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay, let's go back. Let's put all of this like, we've disappointed somebody else in the context of grief. This is a grief podcast. It's called Enduring the Grief. And enduring. Yes, you can endure the grief of letting somebody down because you've changed your mind. You can also endure the grief of having been let down without it being something that has to be fixed. Because the only way to fix it is to get your friend to change their mind back and keep the plan.
Sarah Peterson [:Why? Why can't we just be disappointed and know that again, the sun will rise tomorrow?
Shanan Kelley [:That's an interesting question. Can't we just be disappointed and also, like, is it really that disappointing? I guess for me, I'm like, never. I'm trying to think of things that, like, really disappoint me. Like, it's pretty extreme. Like, if something gets canceled, I'm not like, oh, man, I just. Just go do something else.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Or nothing.
Shanan Kelley [:Or nothing else. Which I love.
Sarah Peterson [:Which I also love.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:It's an interesting concept, but I think that whether we're talking about big, like, global changes that we face that are not Aligned with our own values and how we see the world unfolding. Those are disappointments, clearly. Also disappointments in personal relationships, Disappointments in the grief process or how we're doing it or how people are showing up for us. So it seems to me that the world is full of. Of disappointment.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, it's a disappointing place.
Sarah Peterson [:Why don't we get good at being disappointed and moving on?
Shanan Kelley [:I think because we're being sold an idea that we should never be disappointed. We should always bending. Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. I know. It is. It is. And I think that's why you hear, like, older people being like, well, suck it up, kid.
Sarah Peterson [:Suck it up.
Shanan Kelley [:You'll have to wait.
Sarah Peterson [:Response.
Shanan Kelley [:Get up earlier or whatever. You know, save some money. Like, okay, grandpa.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay, grandpa.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. I listened to something a couple years ago, and this phenomenon that we're, like, the closest we've ever been as a species to being comfortable, and we're, like, the most unhappy and the most anxious and the most depressed and all of these things. And actually, I had a yoga and comedy event the other night that was really fun. And one of the jokes that I shared in it is, there was a study during COVID that, like, 87% of people are barely hanging on. And my question is just like, well, how did they conduct that study? Were they just, like, going up to people like, excuse me, ma' am, are you barely hanging on? And she was like, as a matter of fact, I am barely hanging on it. 87% of people. How do you conduct a study?
Sarah Peterson [:Hardly hanging on.
Shanan Kelley [:Barely hanging. Hanging on pretty good, you know,
Sarah Peterson [:Like, how are you hanging in there? Could you quantify that?
Shanan Kelley [:Can you.
Sarah Peterson [:Are you hanging in there by one finger?
Shanan Kelley [:If it was on a star, like a star system, one to five stars, like, where are you barely hanging on? Yeah. How did that study happen?
Sarah Peterson [:That's great.
Shanan Kelley [:And also 87 of us. Yikes.
Sarah Peterson [:And has that gone up? Up or down?
Shanan Kelley [:I don't know. I don't know. And, like, how are you? Do you feel like you're barely hanging on?
Sarah Peterson [:Most of the time? I am barely,
Shanan Kelley [:Darely hanging on. I definitely.
Sarah Peterson [:But the part about that's barely for me is that I give myself no breaks. I do not turn off the story that says, I'm not doing it right. I'm not doing it enough. I'm not. That there's something wrong with me. Like, however it is I'm showing up is not ever. Like, I'm not comfortable. Is that because I keep moving the finish line, mostly.
Sarah Peterson [:So I recognize that essentially the barely part of hanging on is mostly up to me.
Shanan Kelley [:Shoot. Yeah. Gosh, I hate when that happens.
Sarah Peterson [:I know
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, no, I know. It's like we can only define success for ourselves. I mean, I truly believe that. And, God, why did I have to bring success into this?
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, I thought, barely hanging on.
Sarah Peterson [:Barely hanging on. And, I mean, do you feel like. You're barely hanging on?
Shanan Kelley [:I mean, there's definitely moments where I'm like, I think I'm barely hanging on.
Sarah Peterson [:How do we know?
Shanan Kelley [:You know, for me, it's like, I'm a pretty emotional person, and I'm, like, always kind of just in whatever emotional cycle I'm in, and so I have to really watch it because I can, like, affirm, just as anybody we've already talked about, like, I can affirm something that's incorrect as well, you know, like, oh, I'm the worst.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm not the worst. I could list you several hundred people just right off the docket that are the worst than me, you know? So, I mean, how often am I telling people I don't tell. Incorrect. Don't be incorrect when you describe yourself. Don't tell a lie. You're not a liar. And I'm like, I'm the worst.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm not the worst.
Sarah Peterson [:You're not the worst.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, come on now.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, I. Good enough.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was trying to calculate the laughs that came out of this yoga comedy event the other night, and I was like, too. If 900 laughs happened in 90 minutes. Wow, that's killer.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And let's, like, tell ourselves the truth about barely hanging on. I also think that there's a story there that we subscribe to that says, look at me, I'm barely hanging on. I'm barely hanging on. And, like, your story of the client who was bad at change, if I really look at it, I'm hanging on.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, you're doing great.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm hanging on.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally hanging on.
Sarah Peterson [:With, I think, ultimate fingers.
Shanan Kelley [:Absolutely.
Sarah Peterson [:Nice grip. Tight as shit. Yes.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, but also, grip strength is an indicator of longevity. So I think. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:So even in grief, like, I think it's so easy to say, I can't do this, I can't do this. It's too hard. And across the board, we get to say that in our lives all the time. It's too hard. I can't do it. I can't do it. It's too busy. And then.
Sarah Peterson [:But if we really pause. And what is the criteria for. I mean, back to your question. Like, what is this study asking? Yeah, what's the criteria? I'm not eating, sleeping, drinking. I mean, I would challenge people to come up with the criteria so they know what it means.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:That's when I'm not hanging on. I know for me, when I'm really, truly barely hanging on, I am not sleeping.
Shanan Kelley [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:I know for sure. I don't eat till like, 4:00 clock, and then I'm really sad by like, 3:30.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, not good.
Sarah Peterson [:And I'm sad.
Shanan Kelley [:And that's such an easy fix.
Sarah Peterson [:You're such an easy.
Shanan Kelley [:String cheese.
Sarah Peterson [:String cheese. I don't have to be so sad.
Shanan Kelley [:Right
Sarah Peterson [:And I yell at my kids more or I'm more irritable with my children, I should say. I only yell at one of them, not both of them. But, yeah, he's a lot. I'm just kidding, Silas. But I sense this level of my threshold is so low for engagement. It's not even like, hearing feedback or doing things I don't want to do. It's simple things, like, what's for dinner? I don't know.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, okay, this is actually really interesting, and I think this is, for lack of a better term, like solvable. I mean, we only have capacity for a certain number of decisions in a single day. And I talk about this a lot in my fundraising work. I work in nonprofits. I work as an auctioneer. And so I'm like, we cannot overwhelm our donors to the point where they cannot make a decision. When we get to the paddle raise, when we get to the live auction, we need them to be, like, cognitively available to what we're trying to make them do.
Shanan Kelley [:Right. So I think that that is something to consider. Like, because I had a friend on a year or so ago, we went on a walk, and they were like, you can spend your whole life being overwhelmed. And I'm like, yeah, you certainly can. And actually, it's funny, because I received a text from this person recently. It was like, I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed. I was like, okay, well, so. So we all get there.
Shanan Kelley [:But when I'm overwhelmed, I take things off my calendar, and there's certain things I never take off of my calendar. Like, I only have a certain amount of energy each day, and, like, then I'm just. So. I need to just stop. And so if it gets to be too much, you know, I'll reschedule that vet appointment or I'll move that Meeting or I'll see if I can cancel X, Y, and Z. But, like, I keep the workouts there, you know, I keep, like, my meal planning. I try to keep that in place. You know, I try to keep, like, the basics going.
Shanan Kelley [:So I think that when we're feeling like that, more often than not, we gotta adjust our expectations of what we're trying to accomplish in a single day.
Sarah Peterson [:Which is hard if you're really adverse to disappointment.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally. And also if you're a single parent who runs their own business and who has a lot of people depending on them. And not only do you run your own business, but you also. And I mean, I think this is universal for a lot of people. But I'm using you as an example because you're here with me.
Sarah Peterson [:Here I am.
Shanan Kelley [:But you have taken on a lot. I mean, I have taken on a lot. Now I'm like, redoing my backyard. And let me just preface this. I'm terrible at manual labor. So, like, I'm in a world of hurt right now. So it's awful level. It's not my strength.
Sarah Peterson [:Why do we do this? Because I do. I was asked to teach again at Portland State. And at first I was like, no, that was a lot of work. I really don't have time for that.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:It felt overwhelming. On Thursday nights. Before going into class on Friday. And then I was like, you betcha.
Shanan Kelley [:Oof.
Sarah Peterson [:Sure thing. I'll do it.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:I don't know.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, I mean, work with this thing a lot in human design because a lot of it is determining, like, how to identify quickly for yourself what is a yes and what is a no. And it's slightly. We all have, like, a slightly different way of doing this. You just can't say yes to something that's a no. Sarah. I know. It's so tough.
Sarah Peterson [:So how do you do that in grief when you can't trust what you're thinking?
Shanan Kelley [:Right. That is a really good question. That's a really good question. Okay, so here I go. I think that probably we can err on the side of extra space and grief.
Sarah Peterson [:But everything doesn't have to be a no.
Shanan Kelley [:No, no, no. Definitely not. Everything does not have to be a no. But I think. Think you have to be padding yourself with extra space during. During that time. And unlike. That's tricky too, Right.
Shanan Kelley [:Because as I had said to you, I think before we turned the microphones on, like my friend. Or maybe during. I don't know if time is a construct. So five years Right. Casey has been gone. And so, like, what defines the. Like, the grieving window. And I don't think we can define that.
Shanan Kelley [:I think it's unique. I think it's changing, and I think it's like a moving target all the time. And so. But what I would also say is, like, when, you know, you're in the thick of it, the first couple years.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, let's just definitely.
Shanan Kelley [:Right. First couple of years, like, you're gonna be way more spacious. You're letting. Probably letting a lot of relationships go to the wayside, and those things can be repaired later.
Sarah Peterson [:Right.
Shanan Kelley [:Like, you're taking a lot of things off of your calendar. And I think that this is difficult because for some people, they feel better when they have a lot going on. But then I think, again, like, to your question, like, how do you determine when your brain is actually making the right call? Because what I have also observed is that people who do not tend to their grief, it comes for them in the form of illness, injury, you know, a couple years down the road. Like, now I'm in the hospital with the surgery. And that is just something that happens.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, and Elizabeth was on here a few weeks ago, and although I asked her not to tell her whole story, she did.
Shanan Kelley [:God bless her.
Sarah Peterson [:And that's exactly what she talked about. Just not tending to her grief or doing her best to tend to her grief by avoiding it, which is a valiant effort, honestly.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally.
Sarah Peterson [:Avoiding grief, which you think you're doing, is also a method of tending to it in a way, because it's learning to live with it in that moment.
Shanan Kelley [:Speaking of life, like, reaffirming something that may not be true. Like, I hear people saying this and doing this all the time. Like, oh, well, this is just how it works best for me. And also, I think Elizabeth's story is so interesting because she was doing that 12 years ago. 14 years ago.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:And so when we think of, like, grief as a skill set. We didn't think of it as a skill set 14 years ago, but I certainly think of it that way now. I think it's a set of skills for sure. The skill set of grieving.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. That we don't teach it.
Shanan Kelley [:No. We don't even learn it. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:But no, I mean, in the end, she said her. It came for her and her back hurt, and she was stuck in bed alone with her thoughts for months.
Shanan Kelley [:Yep. I know.
Sarah Peterson [:Which was transformative. And it was how it had to be.
Shanan Kelley [:Exactly. I know. I don't think. I know. I have someone I care about very Much. And they are doing this. They have been avoiding their grief, and it's a tremendous amount of grief for this particular person. And so, again, like, I'm not faulting them.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm not being critical at all. This was their choice, and they are dealing with it in that way. And that is, as you said, like, a pathway to tending to your grief in a different way. But I guess for me, I'm like, I can also appreciate what is on the other side of tending your grief, like, being conscious and bringing awareness to it and building that muscle and building that skill and, like, really facing it and being in it. Like, I can appreciate that process and also appreciate what's on the other side of that.
Sarah Peterson [:Totally.
Shanan Kelley [:And I think I would wish in the same way, like, okay, I've been single for a very long time. Let me think. Since 2017 is 2025. So we're all, like, hit. Almost about to hit a decade.
Sarah Peterson [:It is 2025.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. It is currently 2025.
Sarah Peterson [:Let me check my phone, maybe it was 2026.
Shanan Kelley [:Like, in the same way that I think, like, oh, I wish more people had that experience. It's such a special experience, and it is, like, somewhat unique. It's not, like, a common experience to, like, spend a long stretch of time as a single person, to become skillful at being single. And I'm not seeing people really do this a lot. And, like, for me, it has been a beautiful thing. And I feel that same way about this experience of, like, really, truly diving in and experiencing your grief. It's, like, really rich, beautiful, incredible experience.
Shanan Kelley [:And I think it's such a e part of being a human, because it is the agreement that we make to be here and have love and have relationships and have beautiful experiences in our life. You know, everything is going to fall away. And as much as I hate it, I do know that's true.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. It'll either be you or them.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:It's gonna go. And I think it's like, back to what I say all the time, Shannon, which is, we must learn to live in this actual reality. Like, the actual reality.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:In the most way. And there are times in which I'd watch people who we might accuse of ignoring their grief or averting it or running from it. And I question, okay, are you living in this reality? And I think some of them could say, yeah, I am, and it's too much.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:And so I have to also be doing this so that I have a meaningful life.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:There's room for that. But you can only. That I think, is a place to say, like, am I doing what my brain and heart, are they aligned in what I'm answering to this day?
Shanan Kelley [:Are they aligned?
Sarah Peterson [:Am I living in this reality? Because when I say yes to something that. That I don't have time for, we can firmly say I'm not in this reality.
Shanan Kelley [:You stepped into a different reality in a fantasy world where that would be a good idea.
Sarah Peterson [:Where that would be a good idea.
Shanan Kelley [:It's so tough, too, because I think you have so many amazing opportunities coming for you. You're just going to have to pick and choose. And the better you are at picking and choosing, the better your experience of everything you say yes to will be.
Sarah Peterson [:So something is wrong with me.
Shanan Kelley [:And nothing's wrong with you. You just are ambitious. Right. This is where we try to understand, like, what is ambition and, like, what's our relationship to it and what do we really want and what are we trying to accomplish here? And then also, it's math.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes, it is math. And there are pieces of my ambition that are driven by a discomfort with parts of my life.
Shanan Kelley [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:That I. If I'm doing this, then I'm at least I'm not doing that.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally.
Sarah Peterson [:And those parts of my life are honestly really changing right now. So that's great.
Shanan Kelley [:Totally.
Sarah Peterson [:And the new ones will still appear. And so yet another skill set to develop where, you know, the discomfort of the experience, whether that's grief related to death or changing life or whatever, is not enough for me to sacrifice what I know is right for me.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, that's right. This is one of my favorite things that I'm thinking and talking about right now. And that is what is technology? Because I think what we are doing is, like, totally underestimating the technology that is contained within our human body, because it is astounding. Do you think intelligent alien life form is, like, going to Verizon and spending $1,000 on a device and then, like, plugging it into a wall and, like, dicking around on an iPhone for hours? Like, maybe I don't. Maybe that's what they're doing.
Sarah Peterson [:Maybe.
Shanan Kelley [:But, like, okay, I can look at you and in. Through, like, my eyes, something comes in. And then I have an emotional experience of you. And then I can speak about that, or I can write a poem or I can write a song about, like, that is insane.
Sarah Peterson [:That is insane.
Shanan Kelley [:And then, like, my dog can come into the room and, like, not say a word or make a sound, but give me a particular something. I don't know what. And I'm like, oh, she has to pee. And then I take her out and she goes pee. And I'm like, that is insane.
Sarah Peterson [:Wow.
Shanan Kelley [:And then I can walk into this room and be close to you and our hormones start to interact and I pop out of chin hair, start my period and start stuffing my face with cheese. And I'm like, what happened? Oh, yes, we are both in perimenopause. Like, that is amazing. Right? Like, you're going home with a chin hair today for sure. Because you got to sit here with me today. I mean, that's amazing.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I mean, I talk about this in one of my workshops. There's mirror neurons. And that's why people pass out when they watch somebody get a blood drawn.
Shanan Kelley [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:Because we in the technology of our brain, of our neurology, don't often know the difference between somebody's suffering in our own.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah, right.
Sarah Peterson [:That's empathy.
Shanan Kelley [:It's wild. And even like what we're doing with nature, right? Like you look at a plant and you like feel better. But even I would take it one step further. Like, I'm having this. My therapist encouraged me to use the term existential review instead of existential crisis, which I really like. Existential review. Okay. Because what am I doing with this? I'm like, so much of our day to day life has nothing to do with the natural world.
Shanan Kelley [:And for me, that is like such a huge miss and I almost don't even know what to do about it because I live in a house and I drive a car and I pay bills and like I'm going to continue to do those things, but also the natural world is it. That's the whole point is like the trees and the water and the sounds and the birds and all this stuff and like, we are not doing it right.
Sarah Peterson [:No. And I mean, obviously here in central Oregon, we are blessed because a drive to work means often.
Shanan Kelley [:Absolutely.
Sarah Peterson [:A stroll along the Deschutes River.
Shanan Kelley [:That's so grateful.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes. So grateful. What do we tell the people who live in places without trees?
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. I can't even conceive of it.
Sarah Peterson [:What do they do?
Shanan Kelley [:They can't even conceive of what this benefit is that we have. I just look out my window.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, I think that what they do though is they pause to set intention and they take the drops and the, the drips and the drops that they do have when they have them. And if we don't, whether it's you and me stopping to look at the Mountains that are finally melting of the snow or finally covered in snow. We can miss it without intention. Same for people who don't have the same view as us. Like, if you pause, you can really enjoy. And nature. Nature all the time.
Shanan Kelley [:I also think, like, there is such a huge amount of opportunity for us to, like, be in community with nature in a different way, where we're. It's like a level playing field, and we're living in reverence with it. And, like, I'm saying these things and I don't know what to do about it because of the culture I live in is. I live in capitalism. It's the water that I'm swimming in. Like, it doesn't matter if you're trading for everything. Like, you still live in capitalism. You know, like, it operates differently where there's a hierarchy.
Shanan Kelley [:That is not nature. And to me, I'm like, how are we missing out on this? And I have grief about that. That and confusion and, like, nervousness and anxiety and about that. And I'm like, okay, so I'm starting a garden.
Sarah Peterson [:There you go.
Shanan Kelley [:That's one little thing I can do.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:You know, I went to the store and I bought a dolly, and, like, a bumblebee landed on it as I was walking in my car. And I was like, I'm a. I'm a fairy princess.
Sarah Peterson [:That's all it takes.
Shanan Kelley [:This is amazing.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, I'm doing it.
Shanan Kelley [:Affirmation feed. That was feedback.
Sarah Peterson [:That was feedback.
Shanan Kelley [:Little chubby bumblebee.
Sarah Peterson [:Aww cutie. Well, I went to a. Okay, do you say peony or peony?
Shanan Kelley [:I say peony.
Sarah Peterson [:Me too. Okay. So I went to a peony farm yesterday out of Salem. My God.
Shanan Kelley [:My God.
Sarah Peterson [:Just amazing.
Shanan Kelley [:Amazing
Sarah Peterson [:Amazing. To just be amidst that many flowers.
Sarah Peterson [:Like, just for your pleasure.
Sarah Peterson [:Just, like, the pleasure.
Shanan Kelley [:The flowers, they're like. Like, I'm just gonna be beautiful. That's all I do.
Sarah Peterson [:That's it.
Shanan Kelley [:It has a beautiful color. And then also I show you a life cycle and a seasonality, and there's, like, a lot to be learned there. And I'm like, I'm here for it.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, it was remarkable. I was really glad I stopped.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Normally I drive, right? You know.
Shanan Kelley [:Where is that place? I'm gonna go there today. It sounds wonderful.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I would go back. I bought a bouquet, and I wish I would have bought five because it's so beautiful.
Shanan Kelley [:So beautiful.
Sarah Peterson [:It's just these massive, like, the size of my head.
Shanan Kelley [:The peonys in my neighborhood are just starting to come up right now, and I'm like, It's funny because there's certain houses where, like, I don't think they would mind if I go put my face in it. And then there's other houses that I just enjoy them from the sidewalk and. But I do enjoy them.
Sarah Peterson [:And I think we could go back to all about intention, because that farm yesterday, I sort of sat back and watched all the intentions unfolding. Plenty of young families trying to get their pictures of their little ones with the flowers. Adorable.
Shanan Kelley [:Adorable.
Sarah Peterson [:They were not taking it in.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:And letting it soothe them. They were meeting an objective, which is great. I'm not dissing that. But just interesting that there was such a very different energy around their intention.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, it's such an interesting life stage. Right. Like, I don't even have children, but I have observed in my friends who have young children that they're like, glazed. I'm like, you're not even going to remember these years that we've spent together. Right. I mean, small children, that's like a whole other.
Sarah Peterson [:It sure is.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. And I think that people generally with small children are like, they got. There's got to be some overwhelm there that's, like, very legitimate. And then there's also got to be that, like, maybe a grief you're almost not aware of because of who you used to be. Who you used to be. And also, like, who you. You are not now and what you're missing out on. And also, like, the fact that you just kind of do have to get through this, like, truly magical time in your life.
Shanan Kelley [:You really just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Especially, like my friends and family members who have small children who are working. I'm like, that is a whole other beast. Like, that didn't even exist a couple generations ago.
Sarah Peterson [:Right.
Shanan Kelley [:I mean, and better or worse. I'm not saying I'm not one of these, like.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, exactly. Last night, Silas, it's nine o' clock on Sunday. And he's like, mom, I'm in a crisis. I need 70 things done on this computer and I can't suddenly don't know how to read. So I need you to do it all for me.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Is a lot. But, you know, setting this intention. Because I did wish there was families having a great time there yesterday. That's not what I'm saying. And I watched them just have this insistent energy around having this certain type of experience there at this flower farm. I had the luxury yesterday of really, truly meandering around, setting the intention to take it in. And when I left There. My gosh, I felt like a different person.
Sarah Peterson [:I really did. I felt revitalized in a lot of ways because I think the intention was there. So how. In this whole process of either being a disappointment or. No, I shouldn't say that. In this whole process of disappointing people because we've changed our mind or being disappointed by something that's occurred. Big world, small world, only your world.
Sarah Peterson [:Where can we find this connection to what is through intention? That was a lot of words.
Shanan Kelley [:I think nature helps us with that. Right. Like, I'm doing this meditation program right now, and oftentimes the meditation guide will be like, okay, go to a place. Like, maybe it's a place in nature that, like, you feel really good, you feel really safe or whatever. And I was sharing with someone, like, oh, I go. Most of the time, I go to the redwoods. And they were like, why? And I was like, what? Oh, I'm like, what conversation is this that we're having? But I think that, like, even in your mind, like, a beautiful image of nature, a particular place, you feel connection to, like, immediate assistance.
Sarah Peterson [:Yep, absolutely. And cultivate it. You have to nurture it. You have to nurture those neuropathways, like pruning your new garden. You have to make it an accessible path.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, yeah, I mean, like, to go back to your point about people who maybe don't have ready access to nature the way that we do, but then you hear about, like, groups in inner city organizing hiking groups and things like this, like, to get people who don't normally have instant access to it, like, intentionally out. And it's like, changing their lives and the people moving, and then they're getting jobs in the state parks, and they're doing. We met a woman in the redwoods, and she was like, six months ago, I was selling insurance in Monterey, and I was like. She's like, I'm living the dream now. And she's just, like, standing at the entrance to the freaking trail, like, telling people about the lichen, and she's happier. And I'm like, I might get on the list for this.
Sarah Peterson [:This is.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm like, choices were made, ma' am. I'm extremely happy for you. This is amazing. And she's just getting charged up every day at work, just, like, standing in these giant trees.
Sarah Peterson [:Amazing.
Shanan Kelley [:Amazing.
Sarah Peterson [:Also, everybody has access to the sky. And I think if we can take a moment and look up and take a breath and just simply feel small or feel powerful or feel big or feel however you need to feel. But again, it's like, until we harness our intention, we are really untethered, floating through. Back to your point at the beginning. Going through life, marching through, paying the bills, doing the thing all the time.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. And also, we all have a body, and our body is nature. Nature. And so it's not that we have to go put ourselves in nature. We already are nature. Like, we are. I am in relationship to this plant and to you and to, like, we are doing the thing. And so I think we can deepen that connection and, like, be curious about that and explore that and, like, just put ourselves in our own body.
Shanan Kelley [:I mean, I've taught yoga for, like, 14 years now, and nothing is more amazing to me than, like, going to the airport and seeing people just, like, have no awareness of their body in space.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:Right. And it's, like, a really interesting phenomenon. And, like, that alone would improve things. And then also, I'm gonna add. And we did this at the. In the first episode, but I'm gonna put this in there too, because I think if we can be kinder to ourselves. Yeah. All of this will be easier.
Sarah Peterson [:You're right. You're 100 right about it.
Shanan Kelley [:Like, that is, if we can do one thing, let's be kinder to ourselves. And, like, that's how we address one of our biggest problems with. Is misogyny. And I know sometimes people don't like big words. So I think what we can say is, let's just be kinder to ourselves. And, like, that will solve probably every problem that we have.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, honestly. You're right. That is the last point. Point on how to deal with compassion fatigue, how to deal with lack of empathy, how to deal with burnout.
Shanan Kelley [:100%
Sarah Peterson [:It's always going to, actually. You also need to be,
Shanan Kelley [:Like you said, you had the long day. You change your mind, you just go, you know, I gotta do the kind thing to myself.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm doing what's right for me right now.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. And, like, that's aligned. Like, I don't believe in, you know, how would I want my friend to respond? You know, I want her to be kind to herself. Like, I have to be. And people like, how do you do it? Like, you just do it.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:You just do it.
Sarah Peterson [:It's true. And it's a skill.
Shanan Kelley [:And it is a skill, and you have to start practice it. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Right.
Shanan Kelley [:Sometimes we have to address things going on in our brain. I don't know if I've shared this before, but, like, I've worked a lot on my inner monologue And I really thought I had it locked and loaded. And then last January, I was traveling with my best girlfriend, and, like, something was going on in my brain. I was, like, saying this thing, and then I was like, I caught it. And I was like, that is not what. And I shared it with my friend. She's like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, I can't even imagine you doing.
Shanan Kelley [:And I was like, me either. It, like, snuck up on me. It's insidious. And so I think that there's always opportunity to be kinder to ourselves. And, like, you could think of it in percentage points, like, I'm gonna be 5% kinder myself. Or you could, like, really go hard and be like, I'm gonna be a hundred percent kinder to myself, and I'm gonna talk about it, and I'm gonna ask other people to do the same and, like, watch things shift very quickly.
Sarah Peterson [:Wow. Make lots of friends. Suddenly you're so.
Shanan Kelley [:Whether you want to or not,
Sarah Peterson [:It's either very full or very, very, very empty.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay, so the title of the podcast is Enduring Grief Healing Practice Practices and Stories for Living After Loss. We've got, like, 90 seconds, Shanan.
Shanan Kelley [:Okay.
Sarah Peterson [:Tie everything together so that it matches my title and all is synthesized into one 90 seconds.
Shanan Kelley [:I think this is exactly the thing that I did the first time.
Sarah Peterson [:It is.
Shanan Kelley [:It is. It's be kinder to yourself. And, like, again, talk about that. Share with people that you're doing it. Ask for community and support around it. Like, encourage other people to do. Like. Often I'll be sitting in a restaurant.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm like, imagine if every single person in this restaurant. Restaurant was 5% kinder to themselves. Starting right now. Like, it will just snowball.
Sarah Peterson [:You're right.
Shanan Kelley [:It will just snowball immediately. Because I'll tell you what, like, when we think about injury or grief or illness, it's like, gosh, feeling bad is a great motivator to make a change. Right? But you know what is even better motivator? Feeling good.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, my gosh, Shanan. I tell people that all the time. Shame does not inspire change.
Shanan Kelley [:That's right.
Sarah Peterson [:Shame inspires shame.
Shanan Kelley [:I want to say that I shaved my legs a couple days ago, and all the hair just grew back because I'm covered in chills. Yeah. No, no, no. Be. Be kinder to yourself.
Sarah Peterson [:Be kinder.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, kinder to yourself. It'll be a lot easier to be kinder to other people too.
Sarah Peterson [:And that's just it. Yeah, that's just it.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you.
Shanan Kelley [:Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Peterson [:I love having you.
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you for joining us on Enduring Grief Healing Practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief.
Sarah Peterson [:If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself. And remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
