Episode 17
Compassionate Listening and Grief Support: How to Truly Hear and Uplift Others -17
Compassionate listening is at the heart of grief support—but what does it truly look like in practice? In this episode of Enduring Grief, host Sarah Peterson teams up with guests Dr. Marlis Beier and Dr. Dean Sharpe to unpack the subtle art of "being with" rather than "fixing" in moments of loss. Discover why grievers themselves might need to learn the skill of compassionate self-listening, and why well-intentioned advice can sometimes fall flat.
With real stories, honest confessions about common missteps, and practical strategies, this episode offers fresh insight for anyone navigating their own grief or supporting someone they love. If you’ve ever wondered what to say (or not say) to someone in pain—or how to set healthy boundaries while healing—tune in and pick up essential tools for authentic, empathetic connection.
Sarah Peterson is a licensed clinical social worker with over 13 years of experience in medical social work, hospice care and in private practice. As the founder of Clear Mourning, a nonprofit organization dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through innovation, support, and awareness, Sarah brings a deep understanding of grief and loss to her work. Her personal experiences, including the tragic loss of her two-year-old daughter and father, have profoundly shaped her mission to provide compassionate support to others navigating grief.
Sarah holds a Master of Social Work from Portland State University and has extensive experience in both private practice and nonprofit leadership. She also serves as an adjunct instructor at Portland State, runs her own private practice, and provides supervision for licensure candidates.
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Marlis Beier started her professional career in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Bend, Oregon. She found gratification accompanying patients facing life transitions. She learned about grief when her best friend, brother and beloved patients died. Her chronically ill daughter asked her to help her die at age 5. Grief comes not with just the loss of someone but also loss of identity and ability. The diagnosis of MS meant repeated grieving loss of ability and with time, her identity as practicing physician. She found similar gratification volunteering in hospice being with the dying. That’s where she met Sarah. Their deep friendship held space for Sarah as she grieves the tragic loss of her daughter Marley at age 2 from a drunk driver on a Sunday morning.
Marlis has been a spiritual seeker from an early age, learning from many traditions and teachers. She has become a mentor to many through teaching at hospice and the Sacred Art of Living Center. Although she teaches many diverse subjects, her intention is transformation of suffering. Her greatest love is her family, including husband Dean Sharpe, M.D., two daughters, Marissa and Anneliese, and grandsons Thielsen, Sawyer and Kepler. The saga of Anneliese’s health challenges since age one inspired her to become a better doctor, mother and companion to anyone facing illness or challenge.
Dean Sharpe trained as a general surgeon and worked in private practice from 1980 to2002. His interests expanded and in 1994 he earned a master’s degree in health administration, becoming the first Vice President of Medical Affairs at St. Charles Medical Center. He shared this position with his surgical practice until 2002 when he became a full-time administrator. Informatics and computerized medical records arrived, and he facilitated that change at St. Charles from 2004 to 2006 as VP Clinical Informatics. In his two administrative jobs, relationship and change facilitation were his major roles.
His passion as facilitator and educator led to helping design and facilitate “People Centered Teams”, an organizational and personal seminar beginning 1992. The program grew from St. Charles to national, impacting the lives of over 5000 participants. He helped design and teach Death and Dying workshops at St. Charles in the 90’s with the goal that caregivers would become more comfortable with their own mortality as well as their patients. He believes the physician’s role is to facilitate the relationship between patients and their illness, which allows healing, regardless of physical cure. Teaching the Sacred Art of Living Community seminars are a natural extension of Dean’s interests because of the wedding of psychological and spiritual aspects of the inward journey. He has facilitated Healing the Healers seminars since 2008. Starting in 2017 he has facilitated with his wife the 10-month track (part of a program called Anamcara second year) Soul of Wellness: The course focuses on the lifelong questions “Who are you and what do you want? He is married to Marlis Beier, has two daughters and three grandsons. He lives in Bend, Oregon and enjoys cooking, skiing, hiking, gardening, traveling and being with his family.
Transcript
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Sarah Peterson [:Welcome to Enduring Grief, Healing Practices and True Stories of Living After Loss, where we dive into real, honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Mourning. I'm often joined by two incredible guests, Dr. Marlis Beier and Dr. Dean Sharpe, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing. Let's walk through this journey together.
Sarah Peterson [:Welcome back, everybody. We are so excited to have you here. And us three, as usual, are very excited to be together again. Even though we see each other frequently, I think we're always excited to be together, right?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yes.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yes. I'm not sure about the frequently, but,
Sarah Peterson [:Well, considering how many people want to see you and maybe how many people want to see me.
Marlis Beier, MD [:That's correct.
Sarah Peterson [:Our paths align more than for most,
Marlis Beier, MD [:One might expect.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. So, hey, we're just,
Marlis Beier, MD [:It is a valued relationship.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes, it is.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And beneficial.
Sarah Peterson [:And whenever we do these podcasts, I get to come over to their beautiful home and stare at the mountains out the window and usually get some kind of really good snacks. So it's like a win, win, win, win.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Don't forget my peonies.
Sarah Peterson [:And the peonies. Yeah, the peonies are pretty special. Stop and smell the flowers, no doubt.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, and they're such a great symbol of. They come, they're beautiful, and they go.
Sarah Peterson [:And they go. Another practice, and it's sad to see them go. I have a gorgeous bouquet of peonies right now on my counter, and I've been actually following the instructions from the farm that says keep the water cold every day and all the things. Cause I really don't want them to die. They're so gorgeous.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Might be attachment.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, you've always got something, don't you, Marlis?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Just saying.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And if you're gonna love them, you have to learn to love the end of them, too.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, gosh. Oh, that's right. That's what we're talking about here today. Well, we're putting a little spin on it today. Today we want to talk with you guys about what it means to be a compassionate listener or be compassionately listened to. Because I think a lot of our early episodes encourage people to hold space or not have a fix it mentality or what does it mean to just be with? And I often wonder, do we do enough job of explaining what that means? And sometimes maybe this little crew here at this table might assume more about people's skills than is fair. Because we're in the biz, it's easy to forget that not everybody has heard this information at some point or another. But I think wildly, so most have not.
Sarah Peterson [:So I want to see if you guys can back up a little bit, think about what it was like to hear those episodes where we were encouraging you to not fix it and just be with. And let us give you some tools to do that. One of them is compassionate listening. And as I was putting this outline together, I had to stop and pause and think about why does a griever need to learn about compassionate listening? So I want to toss that question out to both of you. Why does a griever need to know about compassionate listening? Because we've got grievers and supporters listening to this.
Dean Sharpe MD [:That's right. You said you were going to ask that question, and it's a perplexing question. And I think that probably the major place that the griever needs to be compassionately listening is to themselves. To be able to continually be open and to allow the feelings to be there and to acknowledge that it hurts and to acknowledge that things are always going to be different and to be compassionate with themselves, to be kind to themselves in that process.
Sarah Peterson [:I think you're exactly right, because I don't think it's naturally upon the griever to provide compassionate listening to the people supporting them. And so. Okay, let's hear what you have to say, Marlis. Dean, I love your answer. A plus. Ding, ding, ding, ding.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Thank you.
Marlis Beier, MD [:No, that was brilliant. Because as David White says, the answer to grief is grief. And so, as both a griever and someone companioning a griever, the role is to be willing to allow space for that grievous person to grieve. And in order to do that with empathy, it requires the person who is accompanying the griever to be willing to feel their own sadness.
Sarah Peterson [:And somehow keep it separate. That's a skill.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Absolutely.
Sarah Peterson [:Keep it separate.
Marlis Beier, MD [:No, no, it's not about you together.
Marlis Beier, MD [:No, no, no, no, no. But that's the way that one of the skills that Dean is going to talk about is that as you are listening to just offer a potential emotion to indicate that you have heard what the griever has said and or a lot of times when we're in difficult emotions, we're stuck. I mean, I grew up. I mean, I may still remain emotionally retarded. It's hard for me to even know all the time what I'm feeling. And to have someone help me name what I'm feeling is so helpful.
Sarah Peterson [:It's good to know. And probably not everybody feels that way, but it's good to know.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, there are feelers and then there are non feelers.
Sarah Peterson [:We'll just tell you not to listen to the non feelers. Maybe they're just not worth it. Just kidding. We like the non feelers. I'm just kidding. I gotta have humor, right?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Okay, Sarah.
Sarah Peterson [:Radical acceptance. Even the non feelers.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Through the meat grinder.
Sarah Peterson [:Was I a non feeler?
Marlis Beier, MD [:I think you as a bartender were probably had some empathy, but I don't know that you were willing to feel all of your own feelings.
Sarah Peterson [:No.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Of grief. And yeah, we're not.
Sarah Peterson [:I think I was good with anger.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yes. I wasn't gonna go there, but
Sarah Peterson [:I knew that feeling. I think I knew the feeling of like, success or like what it felt like.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Accomplishment.
Sarah Peterson [:Doing good. Yeah, doing well. But you're right, I was out of touch. I did a lot of blaming. Interestingly.
Dean Sharpe MD [:I think it's important because you guys slid a little off track right there when Marlis said to tell someone what they're feeling. And it's not so much that
Marlis Beier, MD [:telling them what they're feeling,
Dean sharpe, MD [:It's not so much that. It's more suggesting a feeling that is coming up for you as you're listening or accompanying the other. So I could be with someone who's telling me a story about grief. And there may be in my lexicon, an empathic response to them that I feel that there's a touch of joy in what they're talking about because they're talking about memories which are causing them to be sad. But for me, I can also see that there's a piece of that which has to do with joy. And so I might say it sounds like you're a little joyful too. And the griever might look at me like I'd lost my mind, which is fine, but they might also look at me and say, you know, I am recounting something that's joyful.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And you know what? That's why it really hurts so bad right now. And now the person who's telling the story understands their story at a slightly deeper level. Not because I manipulated them, but because I simply reported what it was that I intuitively and empathetically noticed about what they were talking about.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe MD [:So it's a way of contacting the other's experience through your own experience. And it shows the other that you're truly tracking and listening and mostly caring.
Sarah Peterson [:About the right stuff because it's really easy to care about things that don't matter out of an effort to show you're caring. But it doesn't matter.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:I was out to dinner recently. A glass of wine got spilled. The staff was so sweet that quick grab another glass of wine and brought it over the table. And they also included, like it was their fault, which it was not a free dessert. And someone at the table had really been wanting this dessert the whole meal. So it was like, oh, great, look at this free dessert, free thing. And when we shared, oh, look at, we got this free dessert. Why? Well, because this glass wine got.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, I never saw the glass of wine gets filled. And it was just like the most quintessential exposure of listening to the wrong damn thing. Like, the thing to be heard was not that you missed the glass of wine being spilled. That has pretty much nothing to do with it, but that the staff here is amazing that they took good care of us, that we have free cake. And I know that that's not grief related or very deep, but those types of misses are just constantly happening. And I think if we're encouraging people to investigate their skill, they're gonna have to back it up to those interactions before they can really trust the process of compassionate listening in heavier moments. What do you think?
Marlis Beier, MD [:I can't help but associate that with the blessing that is said every week at Shabbat Friday night in Judaism for the wine. And it's that the grapes, these beautiful, luscious big grapes, had to be crushed in order to become wine. And that it's like a regular reminder of the transformation that grief creates, that you have to transform from who you were to a wiser, richer person.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, that's true.
Dean Sharpe MD [:That would always be the hope. And I think if we can navigate these things the most conscious way possible, I think that's possible. I've also known people who have grieved and simply become bitter.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And somehow that doesn't seem like the most useful way to harvest what's potentially transformational. I think that there's also a place where I want to say about missing the Boat completely that lots of times when we're attempting to console or we're listening to someone in grief and the pain is so great that it's hard to even sit and listen to it for very long. In fact, the person who's, who's receiving the story becomes overwhelmed in the amount of suffering that they're seeing. That oftentimes in an attempt to help, we say really stupid things in order to try and fix it quick or to make it all better or whatever. You know, the story I'm always telling about that is, you know, the woman who has a miscarriage and it's a really hard time and some well meaning or somebody who's so overwhelmed they just can't tolerate it will say something really extraordinarily stupid like, well, at least you can get pregnant or you can always have another one. Kind of as if another one's gonna replace the one that didn't happen.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe MD [:That somehow that makes it all better. But it's such an attempt to. I mean, at one level it's well meaning and I think you have to accept that. At another level it's denial of the experience. And at an even deeper level, it's. I'm so uncomfortable that anything I can say that would make you feel better is going to make me feel better.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And it's where all that nonsense comes from. Aren't you over this yet? Goodness, it's been two weeks, you know, can you just move on? You want to start dating or something now, right? Can I introduce you to somebody? I mean, it's like I'm tired of it. You get over it.
Sarah Peterson [:Absolutely. I mean, after Marley died, there was somebody. Two weeks. Hey, it's been two weeks. Do you feel like you're making any progress?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Are you kidding?
Sarah Peterson [:I was like, no. No, I definitely don't feel like there's been any progress. Unless progress is that my free fall is still occurring.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And that is awesome. Self advocacy.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe MD [:I mean, where you truly are saying.
Sarah Peterson [:No, or when I had a miscarriage, somebody in said, well, that's what you get for telling people you were pregnant. And I said, I actually don't think that had anything to do with it and walked away. And I was being flippant. Those were my less enlightened, more angry days perhaps. And it was very true. Like, no, I think there was actually something wrong with the baby. And that's why this happened. Not as a punishment for sharing my really exciting news.
Sarah Peterson [:And I know that this person is a lovely, kind, warm person who didn't know what the hell to say. To me.
Marlis Beier, MD [:It's. I mean, the bottom line is we as a culture are not very good at being with discomfort. I mean, the message we get is, watch Netflix, go shopping, eat food, do anything. But where in our culture do you hear it's not only okay to be sad, it's important to be sad. And it's important to be willing to grieve the loss of so many things as you go through your life, from the very little to the very big. And one of the gifts of being willing to authentically grieve is the presence then with the inevitable people that you're going to sit with who are grieving.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Well, there's that quote you often share by Douglas Stier. Do you have it memorized, Dean? I do.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Oh, you should go for it, because.
Sarah Peterson [:I might not have it. Exactly.
Dean Sharpe MD [:It's close enough to listen.
Sarah Peterson [:Another soul into a state of self disclosure is quite possibly the greatest gift.
Dean Sharpe MD [:That any human being ever gives to another.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, that's the truth. And that's not interview them into sharing their story. That's not push them, guess for them, project onto them, corner them. That's simply to listen to them enough that they start to reveal their greatest challenges, vulnerabilities, joys, all the things. It really is quite a gift. And in session sometimes, I'll have people that come in and add one of these patients that sits down and straight 52 minutes with like a quick pause at the end that says, you have any feedback. And then they'll always, almost always say, I'm so sorry I did all this whole time. And I'm like, this is your time.
Sarah Peterson [:And we are so thirsty for an unapologetic hour of downloading. I'm so relieved to have been here for you to do it. And even better, I got paid. I don't have to take this home with me. You are not impacting the way that I'm suffering today. I really, truly think I can bear witness most of the time to these folks.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And I don't know, I feel like I have my battered heart is what makes me an elder. I mean, I bless all of you and bless me back that we continue to allow our heart to be wounded because that is what creates the deeper connection between us all.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I don't think I could see seven patients in a day if I let the wounds occur. And they're not asking me to join them in the wound. Right. Okay. That's not what you're saying.
Marlis Beier, MD [:No, no, no, no. But I Mean, come on, you have people who, their story is still with you,
Sarah Peterson [:Of course.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, that's the willingness just to carry their story is, I think, of value. And that the people who I have grieved, I carry them with me. And that I think is part of what it makes it okay to die, to know that you'll be carried.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, that's true, that's true. Okay. But I'm gonna bring us back to compassionate listening. We need these listeners to walk out of this situation, the time they've given to this podcast with some ideas. And so when I tell the story about the wine and focusing on the wrong thing, what kind of listening do we call that?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Distracted
Sarah Peterson [:Or unending questions
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Or ending questions. Yeah
Sarah Peterson [:Tell us more about what it means to listen with unending questions. I think this happens a lot.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yes. That part of us which is mind running, our mind is so desperate that we know all the details of the story, that what happens is we just ask an questions. So somebody starts to tell a story about something or share something and then you just want to know everything there is to know.
Sarah Peterson [:And I think in grief, that is so scary for the griever because not everybody tells you that their person has died and then wants the follow up question of how they died, when they died, how old were they when they died? And most of the time I'd say none of those details are relevant to the moment.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Exactly.
Sarah Peterson [:Someday, yeah, maybe, I mean, I'll have grief clients who it takes me three or four sessions to kind of wait for them to volunteer how the person died. Because unless it is relevant to the part of the story, like, oh, I cared for my dad with dementia for 10 years, I am exhausted there. It's relevant. But to say my brother died suddenly last week and I'm completely spinning out of control. I can't eat or sleep. At that point, to ask how the brother died feels really stupid
Dean Sharpe, MD [:Useful.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. And yet we think that's an important thing to do to show we care.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. So what would we tell these supporters.
Dean Sharpe MD [:That's showing up with an agenda?
Sarah Peterson [:It is
Dean Sharpe, MD [:You know, it's showing up with I gotta know all the details. As opposed to allowing the person who's telling the story or coming forward with what's going on in their lives to drive the agenda themselves and to simply follow and be curious and open and kind of in beginner's mind and to be fully present in your mind, but not to ask all those questions and in your heart and in your body.
Sarah Peterson [:So how would somebody know, like, is this the right question to ask or not. Because we're all conditioned to ask these really ridiculous questions.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah. In general, I'd say if you're asking a question, you probably don't need to be asking one.
Sarah Peterson [:There you go.
Dean Sharpe MD [:If you really. It's conveying to the person that you're truly there and listening. And that's done with body position, that's done with attention, that's done with eye contact, that's done with an open body position. And occasionally you might come in and suggest an emotion. They're saying, I can't get anything done. I can't. I don't know where I'm going. I'm just finding myself spinning my wheels.
Dean Sharpe MD [:I'm out of control. And you might just come in and say, you sound overwhelmed.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And that's it.
Sarah Peterson [:Not where were you supposed to go?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Right. No, you sound overwhelmed or you sound really sad or it sounds like you're out of sorts or scared. Yeah. Or whatever. And people will stop and they'll say, yeah, I am overwhelmed. And suddenly they have a term for all those symptoms they were talking about. And it's not because you've manipulated anything or you're kind of magic. All you've done is contact your own empathy in the place of what you're hearing and fed it back.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And they might say, no, I don't feel so overwhelmed. I just feel sad. And then, perfect, great.
Sarah Peterson [:We've got the actual real time data.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:And maybe a question driven by that exact experience is.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Okay.
Sarah Peterson [:I might say something like, have you been sad all day or did it just show up? Because that's two different types of sadness. But we're actually still talking about the thing, which is I'm sad, not. Wait, did you get here today? Did you take 3rd street or did you take the Parkway? Because that can be really upsetting or whatever dumb thing that is irrelevant to what we've just discovered. What are other ways that we don't listen to each other?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Oh, we interrupt one another all the time.
Sarah Peterson [:That's terrible.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Just notice sometime when you're out to dinner with a group of people how often people are interrupted. And every time they are. If your eyes want to follow the conversation, because that's what you naturally do if you spend a moment looking at the person who is interrupted every time a small death occurs. I mean, another way we don't listen well is with the intention to fix it. I know that when I listen to my wife, Marlis here, when she comes home with some story about something that happened and she's either angry or bewildered or sad or whatever. If five sentences into it, I have a plan of action. You should. And this is who you should talk to.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And I can get you the phone numbers and I get that look like, thank you very much,
Marlis Beier, MD [:But you know what you should do?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yes. You know, you should go.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, I think the word should is a real good indicator that we could pause and reevaluate what's coming out of our mouth or in our internal dialogue. Because the word should is a lot of times connected to, you're not doing it right, and I know better or you're not doing it right, so you should be ashamed you're making a mistake on purpose. If we're using the word should. And of course, sometimes we know we are making a mistake on purpose. I shouldn't eat this third ice cream bar. Here I go. And a lot of the times we're just using it really loosely and we're telling ourselves a story about, well, I should be over this. I should be able to go to work.
Sarah Peterson [:Been kinder yesterday to the friend who said the terrible thing to me. There's all bunches of shame attached to each one of those shoulds. I call it the should slip. And same goes as a supporter. You should eat something. You should get out more. You should go back to work. You should take time off.
Sarah Peterson [:It's just this I know better sort of statement. And so if you find yourself hearing or saying the word should, it's a great time to step back.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Right? Well, I think it's the difference between being in charge like the parent and journeying with. You should eat something. Is way different than, how about we get something to eat?
Sarah Peterson [:Or I wish you would eat something.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Because at least I'm being honest about this being my situation, my discomfort. I wish you would eat something. I really do. Or could you eat something? Or how about we get some food? All of those. Eliminate the power differential. You agree, Marlis?
Marlis Beier, MD [:I agree.
Sarah Peterson [:You're a quiet little mouse today on this episode.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, this is Dean's brilliance. He's.
Sarah Peterson [:It's Dean's brilliance.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah. No, I.
Sarah Peterson [:Is Dean a perfect listener?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Hell, no.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Nope.
Marlis Beier, MD [:No. He's like,
Sarah Peterson [:Where does he struggle the most?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Oh, my God. He interrupts me all the time.
Sarah Peterson [:Tiny deaths, Dean.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Tiny deaths. I know, I know.
Marlis Beier, MD [:You teach what it is you need to learn.
Dean Sharpe MD [:You know, the reality is that one can know an enormous amount of information and incorporating it in your day to day behavior is always an amazing kind of challenge.
Sarah Peterson [:Sure is.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And that's the part where I also want to just be clear that a part of listening to yourself is having compassion for the fact that you're not going to be perfect at it probably ever, ever. Oh, and can you be kind to yourself in the process of learning or coming back and correcting?
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Even if we're looking at the ice cream bar situation instead of should I shouldn't have eaten that third bar. I can say I didn't have to eat the third or I wish I wouldn't have eaten the third bar. Those statements alone are not driven by a shame story. They're driven by I have wisdom of my experience. Next time maybe I'll think more clearly about that decision, maybe not. And moving on with the day, right.
Sarah Peterson [:What about other ways people don't listen? I feel like there's at least one more my life chapter.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:I think that's a pretty common cold of the grief experience from supporters too.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah, I thought about it in relationship specifically to grief. But for sure that would be true that you're in grief and talking to someone about your grieving and you stop to take a breath and they're off and running with, you know, the same thing happened to me back in 1965. Let me tell you about it. And there you are off in my Life Story, Chapter 43, and they are talking and talking and talking about something which is not what the griever needed now.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:You know, it's interesting. When I am meeting someone new who's lost a loved one to suicide, I know that it's not helpful for them to know that I also have experienced the loss from suicide. And boy, I'll tell you, it shifts my intention and attention immediately to just their story, that moment. And it's the challenge is because when I am with someone like that, my own story comes right up into my throat and is right there to process again. And yet I know that in this moment it's not about me.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, I think that too is a skill, because I do believe that there are times in which this connection of understanding can be so rich. And that would be the time to pause and say, what is this person really, really trying to say? I think I'm the only one who's ever been through this. And that might be. I'll hear that from bereaved parents. And that is kind of typically my cue to say something like, you're not the only one. There's a bunch of us in this club and it's terrible and leave it at that and just kind of see what happens. I also think then there's a place as a supporter who's experienced a similar loss to say, and ask me anything. That's what I do.
Sarah Peterson [:And let me tell you right, but like, I open the door and say, you can ask me anything. If I don't want to answer it, I won't, but please ask me anything.
Marlis Beier, MD [:One of the things that really drove me as a physician or hospice or anytime is that I really feel like any person who I get to have the honor to listen to their story and be with them, I'm going to learn something. So there's a place where I listen and or am present to another wondering, what is it that I'm gonna get to learn here?
Sarah Peterson [:I love that because that's honestly one of the skills I use to remain focused for sometimes seven straight hours of listening is using that inspiration to keep me fully attentive to their experience. I'm not tuning in much to what's happening to me. I don't wanna miss what they're gonna say. I'm constantly challenging myself to find what they're really say. And if you find yourself doing that and make that a practice, there's very few, if ever, times where I'm like, oh, God, where were we?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Crap. I have no idea what you were just saying because I have been really consciously trying to understand what they were saying. I don't find myself just letting their story wash over me at all. I'm consciously saying to me in my head, don't screw this up. No, I'm saying, what experience am I going to be ready to connect to?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, yeah, how about, what's the gift here for me in learning about the human experience? And it's for me, it's love the other as yourself, because they are. And their story is my story. And we all learn together that way.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, I do. When I teach the social work students, I tell them that that's the worst thing I think a therapist could do is have the client look up and say, where was I? And the therapist go, don't know, wasn't listening, so that I won't be that person. And I don't think I'm that person in my regular personal relationships either.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And you know, I'll make you a bet you have been at some time. And I forgive you.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, thank you.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And do you forgive you?
Sarah Peterson [:Never.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes, I do. I am human. Yeah, I am human. And none of this is to say that any of us are ever gonna do it perfectly. Like you said, it's not about that. And if perfection was the only success in this practice, why do it so well?
Marlis Beier, MD [:I think it's really important. Important. If you say something stupid, which God knows I have spent a lifetime doing, to say, wow, that was really stupid. I'm so sorry.
Sarah Peterson [:I did that yesterday, actually. I called my daughter's school and said, and the gal who answers the phone, she also works the concerts a lot of the time. And I almost always see her there, and she's the happiest person and she's looking like she's having so much fun. And when she answered, I said, ah, you get to go to the concert. And she said, get to work at the concert. And it was real misfire on my part. Like, that's right. She's not going to the concert.
Sarah Peterson [:She's going to her second job after working all day at the school. It's work, and great for her. She gets to hear this great band. Anyway, I saw her at the concert and I said, I'm really sorry. That was super insensitive of me. And I realized that you aren't getting to go to the concert and that you are, in fact working here. And then I told her what an amazing job she did, and she said, thank you.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Oh, good for you.
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you. She said, this is my favorite job. And no, I don't get to go to the concert. You know, it was nice.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well done.
Sarah Peterson [:I know. I was. Really? Yeah. And the friend who I was with was like, you're a better person than me. And I was like, well, then win, win.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Someone said, you're a better person than me. Like it's a competition.
Sarah Peterson [:No, I think it was more in jest, but also I think that we can hold up the mirror for each other. We can be teachers in these vulnerabilities and these willingnesses to be with and sit and model that.
Marlis Beier, MD [:That's all it's about.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Is the learning.
Sarah Peterson [:So let's go back to the original question. Do we have anything to add? Why does a griever need to know about compassionate learning? What would we want the Grievers to take away from this episode today?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Boundaries.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. With who? Self. Grief. The other.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yes.
Sarah Peterson [:All.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yes.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yes. Well, immediate grief. It's like a neurologic. It's like a whole body. I mean, I really think that if you can just take a breath, that is really the only expectation that anyone can have of you. I mean, and that would be my self talk at that point is simply that there's oxygen available for me. Can I remember to take a breath.
Sarah Peterson [:And compassionately listening to that means what?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Silence.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:And no, like shoulds.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Oh my gosh. No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, at that particular point, there are no words that are going to mean that you just sitting with. Be the knees.
Sarah Peterson [:Be the knees.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:For yourself even.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Right. And allowing yourself. It's interesting, and maybe this isn't relevant, but I was meeting with the guy who arranges advanced care for my 95 year old mother who's in, you know, she's an independent living and she still walks three miles a day and swims and I mean, she's in great shape, but her marbles are running around a little looser than they used to be. And in the opportunity to be with him and talking about more possible care, I began to grieve the loss of my mother. And I even teared up. And it made it clear to me that one of the greatest gifts that I can give myself as a griever is to take care of as many of the details in advance that I can so that when she dies, I can just grieve. And so I think that the greatest gift and somebody with them is you see whatever details there are, take care of them.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And to think about you compassionately listening to yourself in that moment. One you were with the grief.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Right. I was. I was so proud of myself.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm really proud of you too. Because a transformation occurred, even if it was a business transformation around the details, et cetera. You know what I'm saying? Paperwork, transformation. Oh, but there's more to it. Of course. We know there's many layers to even some simple paperwork. And it reveals that even in that moment there was a transformation.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, and this is the classic cultural example in that I said to my mom, oh my gosh, I just am going to feel so overwhelmed and sad when you die. And her immediate response was, don't feel that way.
Sarah Peterson [:Classic.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And that would be the next way we don't listen. Which deny the other's experience.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah, talk to us about that, Dean.
Dean Sharpe MD [:You just heard an example of that. It's any time that someone will come up and say something like, I'm sad or I'm angry, and the first response is, you shouldn't feel that way or why would you feel like that? As if there was something illegitimate about how I'm feeling.
Sarah Peterson [:Right.
Dean Sharpe MD [:I mean, it's how I'm feeling. I mean, I don't need it. I don't need you to second guess or to. Or to deny it. So, yeah, that's perfect. Good for your mother.
Sarah Peterson [:Good for your mother.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Oh, she has raised the level of this podcast.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, even so much as I'll have a presentation, I'll say to almost anybody, oh, gosh, I'm kind of nervous. Ah, you'll do great. You'll do great. I know I'll do. I'm not worried about doing great. I'm worried about having a booger in my nose or I'm worried about looking fat on camera. I don't know. But I'm not worried about doing great and that it just, like, misses the whole point.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm worried about. About something very different. I'm worried about how it feels to have this grief thing be the subject of my life. Boy, I didn't want that. Or I'm worried about what it's going to mean to talk about Marley or. You know what I'm saying? Like.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:You'll do great. It's such a cheerleading, wonderful, loving thing to say, and yet it is totally dismissive.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:So what could they say instead? I'm like, oh, I'm really nervous about it.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Oh, I'm hearing you're nervous. What are you nervous about?
Sarah Peterson [:There we go.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Find the experience. Tell me more.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Tell me more. That's. I mean, really just being curious rather than fixing.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Dean Sharpe MD [:We so desperately want to fix.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah, no, I have it bad. I really have it bad. Just gonna.
Sarah Peterson [:We do always confess on here. So this is one for this episode.
Marlis Beier, MD [:I have this really, really good friend who is just going through. I mean, his life is completely coming unglued. I mean, huge grief. Grief, grief, grief, grief. And the other day, I started quoting Hildegard of Bingen. All things shall be. Well, all manner of things. Ya, la, la, la, la.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Afterwards, I just felt like a bozo. I mean, talk about not listening. Don't quote platitudes to people. Of course I did. So I'm gonna be compassionate.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Because the thing is, it's almost always driven by enormous love.
Marlis Beier, MD [:It is.
Sarah Peterson [:And we're learning.
Marlis Beier, MD [:But I'm gonna go apologize.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And say, oh, that was really stupid.
Sarah Peterson [:You don't even have to say stupid. You could say, here's what I wish I would have done, and then provide it.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Okay, deal.
Sarah Peterson [:Here's what I wish I would have done. I wish I would have just sat there. So let me sit there.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yep.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yep.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay, so we have a few more minutes. I love the idea of, like, rewriting the script for people so that they have these tangible things like we just did. Right. Like, oh, tell me More is a really good one. What are some other things that people can say when they want so badly to fix it or they want so badly to tell their own story or they want so badly to interrupt? Tell me more. Thanks for telling me. I don't know what to say is also a good answer.
Dean Sharpe MD [:What else?
Sarah Peterson [:What else? I'm here for you. And another strategy I often talk about, especially with clients, but I think I've shared it with you guys, is, you know, if you're listening to somebody and the details, because sometimes storytelling can get really thick with meaningless details from the storyteller. Okay, that happens. Or, you know, they're trying to share about an experience, and you have to hear about how it started, actually, 10 years ago at the campground in the mountains. And now we're talking about something completely seemingly unrelated. I look at them and I think, okay, I don't know why they always have to be in a field, but they have to be in a field, and they have to be frantically waving their arms in my imagination. And they only get, like, three to five words. You know, when you're having those dreams and talking is so difficult, and you feel like you've just got a mouthful of glue and you can't get it.
Sarah Peterson [:Like, that's kind of how I picture these people desperately trying to tell me the one thing. Oftentimes, it's, I'm so scared. I'm so sad. I'm lost. I miss this person. I feel unimportant. And the whole story could be about something just. I mean, I use driving all the time.
Sarah Peterson [:The whole story could be about an experience on the parkway that was so frustrating. And they get to my office and they're so mad. And if I picture them in the field, it's not about being late. It's not about their air conditioning not working. It's about fear of safety. It's about fear of being insignificant. It's about fear of disappointment. Have I let you down, Sarah? And do you think that's a good tactic? Could you see that working?
Marlis Beier, MD [:To see the people in the field waving their arm.
Sarah Peterson [:And you just give them three to five words, and it's like, what are they really saying to me?
Marlis Beier, MD [:So you pick the three to five words, or they pick the three to five words, or you offer the three to five words.
Sarah Peterson [:I do a combination of those. Those things depending on the situation. Most of the time I share with them the three to five words I've come up with for a check in.
Marlis Beier, MD [:There you go. Bingo.
Sarah Peterson [:But sometimes, if they're not stopping talking, and this is my friend or this is my client. I can't interrupt them to say, well, if we're going to put you in a field, I need to know what those three to five words are. So I will try to then listen to the rest of what they're sharing with me through the lens idea that I've come up with. And then, like, Dean's talked about, circling back in. Sounds like you're scared. Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:I think it's one of the.
Sarah Peterson [:On the parkway had you rattled.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:You were really worried. It sounded like you were really worried about how I was going to take it that you were late. I'm okay. Anyway, that's my strategy.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah. Well. And it's always one of the primary emotions.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I think as the griever, the storyteller, also a strategy to connect with your own experience, to be able to say, what are my three to five words? I am scared. I do miss them. You know, sometimes people go on and on and on and on and on about being lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely. And I'll say, well, have people. Who do you want to come over? Let's call them. Well, I don't want anybody over. Well, who do you want over? Well, the person who died.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, so you miss them. You're actually not lonely, so to speak. You miss your person. And I think that when we can work with the true context, content. Context, People get somewhere. Final thoughts?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah. That is process of dying to who you were and living a new life. Because it's a completely different life.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And there are a lot of emotions on the way by.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And they're healthy.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:I mean, how wonderful. Because the more you're willing to feel them and the more you're willing to name them and acknowledge them and allow them, that is where the healing comes. Because, I mean, the truth is, you're not really alone.
Sarah Peterson [:No.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And you really are loved and you really are held. And there is peace available and there is joy and even the little things available when it's time.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, like being listened to, like being heard or like hearing someone. It's an incredible comfort. Incredible peace. Dean, final words. No takeaways. Nothing. We've said it all.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Said it all.
Sarah Peterson [:You know, you teach this a lot, this content. Did we miss. Miss anything?
Dean Sharpe MD [:I don't think so. I think it covered it very well.
Sarah Peterson [:All right, well, we hope you guys will come back for our next episode. Thanks. You, too.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Thank you.
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you for joining us on Enduring grief Healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself. And remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
