Conversations with a Fellow Griever: Healing Modalities, Overcoming Guilt, and Courage to Release Fear -5

NOTE:

We feel it is important to make our podcast transcripts available for accessibility. We use quality artificial intelligence tools to make it possible for us to provide this resource to our audience. We do have human eyes reviewing this, but they will rarely be 100% accurate. We appreciate your patience with the occasional errors you will find in our transcriptions. If you find an error in our transcription, or if you would like to use a quote, or verify what was said, please feel free to reach out to us at connect@37by27.com.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:00:03

Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW. And in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path alongside my work with my nonprofit, Clear Morning. Clear Morning is dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through support, innovation, and awareness. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing. Let's walk through this journey together.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:00:50

I'm super excited today to have a very special guest. Whitney is here with me to talk about her experience with grief to hear here to also talk with you about her experience with grief. Whitney and I first met when she called to become a client after the loss of her mom. And so Whitney and I have worked together, I think, for 4 years now, almost 4 years. So I've walked I've been able to have the honor and privilege of watching Whitney transform her suffering, learn to live her best reality amidst the grief, and walk through many chapters of this journey that she's been on to living after loss. Welcome, Whitney. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:35

Yes. We are so glad to have you. So tell us a little bit about what happened. What was the story? What was going on with your mom?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:01:43

Well, when I was 9 years old, my mom was diagnosed with a terminal illness and was not given a great prognosis. And so, for my younger brother, and it really felt like imminent loss every day. And so, we had experienced a lot of grief from the get go as children. And then she ended up living for quite a few years after that. She passed away in March of 2021 when I was 35 years old.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:02:17

So you lived with that knowledge, that kind of march toward you of impending finality?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:02:25

Yes. I lived my life in such a high state of alert just with that anticipatory grief and being the sole caretaker of my mom, and then as an adult really fully immersing myself in my work, which also happens to be caretaking, and completely neglected myself.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:02:48

So, basically, you were either taking care of your mom or taking care of the people at your work? Yes. Fun. Yes. That seems like a really hard life.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:02:57

Yeah. That was the only life I knew, really.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:00

And do you feel like because of that, those demands being so serious as well as such significant distractions for you, do you feel like you lost perspective along the way about yourself or what was really important to you or parts of yourself that you just didn't even get to know?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:03:15

Yeah. I don't think I had the capacity to even think about those things. I didn't really understand that there was an option to live life at any other level. I just thought that was the standard.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:32

That Survival.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:03:33

Survival. Yes.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:35

I bet. How exhausting. Yes. But also that in those moments, it's probably really easy to feel like exhaustion is how you're supposed to feel because you're so used to it. You're so conditioned to being that level of alert, that level of drive, that level of responsibility. I mean, did you even know any other way than exhausting?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:03:53

I can't recall any time in my life.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:55

Yeah. Where you felt other than?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:03:58

Other than high alert exhaustion all the time.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:59

Jeez. Yeah. Well, I'm sending compassion, Whitney. Thank you. And that part of you did such a good job because here you are today. Yeah. You did it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:04:06

I did it. You did it. I did. So when your mom died, how did that feel? Was it only sadness? Was there a little bit of relief for her suffering to be done, for your role to have shifted? What were all the things once she finally did pass away?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:04:20

Yeah. I mean, it was the most difficult day of my life. For some reason, somehow, I had ingrained in myself that when her life ended, so too would mine. And, I didn't have any understanding of existence once she was gone. And so, I was completely lost. A few days before she passed away, I kind of felt myself feeling acceptance for the first time. I had lived in denial and just that high alert.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:04:52

I can only think that you were terrified. Of what this was gonna mean. Terrified of her drawing her last breath.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:04:58

Yes. Terrified. And that day, a few days before she passed, I sat down with her and had an honest conversation that it was okay for her to go.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:05:10

Wow. As a hospice social worker, I'll say that the times in which I was either privy to or present for those conversations, they were some of the most profound, deeply, spiritual, loving words I may ever hear in my life.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:05:25

Yeah. It was definitely a moment that we had never had before. And I think that she hung on so long for so many years because I couldn't live without her, and I made that very clear. I did not want to live without her.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:05:42

And from what I know about you and what you've told me about your mom, she didn't wanna go, which also complicates the process of watching somebody die when when they too are are saying I'm not ready. And on that day, do you think she made a shift?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:05:55

Yeah. We did home hospice for about 2 weeks before she passed away. And even while in home hospice, she was calling other hospitals outside of our state and seeing if there was any other option for her. And, of course, there wasn't. And so there was a bit of denial and hanging on for her until those final few days after we had that conversation, and then it was peace. We had friends and family from her childhood and that present time all come together and just sit around the living room and reminisce and eat the foods she used to love as a kid that she no longer ate anymore after being diagnosed and becoming vegan, and I got to see her feel bliss, true happiness for those final days.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:51

Like, she surrendered.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:06:52

She surrendered.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:53

What a gift to you. Yeah. I hope she did it for you. I bet she did.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:06:57

She was very selfless.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:58

Yeah. I bet she did it for you. Yes. Because she probably saw that shift in you that occurred when you had that conversation and thought I can I can work with this to help my daughter? Yeah. Good woman.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:07:09

Great woman. Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:07:10

So once she passed away, what happened? What happened to you? Despite having found this new cell of acceptance, I'm sure that's not exactly how you felt once she actually passed away.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:07:20

Yeah. I think I still didn't understand how life would operate for me moving forward. I was completely numb and still a bit in disbelief. And I remember the day that she passed away in our home, in home hospice, I just sat in the driveway drinking wine and watching my family move around me for hours and hours helping out, and I couldn't be in that reality. So it took some time in the days after that to really snap out of that depth of what's next.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:01

Yeah. And so based on just logistics, did you guys have to go through your mom's things pretty quickly?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:08:07

We did. Yes.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:08

Which I really think adds a whole another layer of complexity too. You know? Some people have, I should say, the luxury, but maybe it's more the freedom to slowly go through things and leave them just as they are for as long as they need. And other people don't have that same freedom because your mom was renting her home. It was the you have to go. And we do have a whole another episode on how to deal with letting the stuff go, like the logistics of what happens in grief and how to move through things, the reminders, the the physical reminders. And, you know, this is just such a big deal because you didn't have that chance to say, leave everything as

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:08:45

it is until I'm ready for that to change. Yeah. I really couldn't even go through much of it. I took the most precious pieces, like her grandmother's piano that she treasured so much, and her plants, her plant babies. But, the rest, I just I couldn't go through it, and I just let it go. And I was lucky that my whole family was there and were able to take what they wanted, what brought them joy and memory of my mom. And then, the neighbors came by and everyone took a little memory, so I feel okay now with letting those things go, but there are definitely moments where I think, dang, I wish I would have had more time. I wish I would have gone through those things a little bit more, but I'm at a point where I can let that go.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:09:38

Yeah. I mean, once you move through the shock part, I think that the things can become less scary to let go of. In that other episode, we talk about how so often we attach our memories to the things. And, like, if we don't have the things, will we also not have the memory? And I think with a lot of work and intention, the further you are from the loss, you can see that that's not the case, that not necessarily is the memory attached to the thing. Do you agree with that?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:10:05

Yeah. A 100%.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:07

And yet we do have these treasures that I know I have treasures that I will never let go of ever no matter what.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:10:14

Yes. Her plants, for sure, I've kept them alive somehow.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:18

Good job.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:10:19

I was not a plant person.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:20

No. You don't drink a lot of water, but you must give your plants water.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:10:22

Yes. She taught me well. When she came out of palliative care, the one thing she was most worried about was her plants not getting watered. And so I knew that that was what I needed to take, and they're thriving now. And then one more item that was really special to her and to me that I took in Still Treasures was a pair of black overalls that she wore every day. She loved her overalls. So

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:49

Oh, and you have them? I don't know if I ever knew that.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:10:51

I have them.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:52

So when I think about the first time you called me, Whitney, your fear was so palpable through the phone. And I think that one of the things I hear in the world about phone, and I think that one of the things I hear in the world about grievers, you know, taking the leap to call a counselor, to call a therapist, and ask for support is sometimes too scary to even do. Did you have those thoughts about it? Was it hard to make that call?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:11:12

For some reason, it wasn't. And I had anxiety my entire life doing those things for myself. I had never made my own doctor's appointment. I was very dependent on my mom to do those things. And usually, that would bring me a lot of anxiety. But I was in such despair that as soon as I got your number from our hospice worker, I called right away. I'm really impressed by that.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:11:37

And I was even more impressed once I met you because I could see the level of disabled you were living with in your grief. And I know in my early days of grief, there was no way I could make those calls, so I was so impressed with you. And I think I even screwed up your email that so you even had to circle back with me to be like, where the heck is the stuff you said you were gonna send? Which even takes another little bit of effort.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:11:59

Yes. I still struggle to do those things now in my life, so that shows how deep I was in it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:06

Yeah. So deep. Gosh. And it was still in COVID and all the things. It was such a weird time.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:12:11

Yeah. More complexities. It was. Definitely.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:15

And then once you got in touch with me and we started working together, did you still have the support of your friends and family?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:12:21

I did. It was difficult to recognize in the moment because I was on my own island. But, I had an abundance of support from friends, from family, from coworkers, from people I didn't even really know well. And, I think the one thing that stuck out to me most is not a single one of them ever gave up on me.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:44

That's amazing because in my first podcast, I talk about that with supporters. Like, the one thing you can really do is not give up. And because I know Whitney well, and I think that she and I are cut from the same cloth in a lot of ways, I can only assume she's got a backlog of text messages, emails, and voice mails much like I do. And in that time of that acute grief when you are getting more contact from people than maybe you would typically, it can get stacked up pretty quick. Did that happen to you?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:13:08

Yeah. I still have text messages that I haven't responded to, that I've held on to this day.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:13:15

And yet those people haven't given up on you?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:13:16

They have not. They have not given up on me. One of my biggest supporters in my grief was my aunt, and showed up for me in a way that catered to my process, being there to just be present. I didn't need to feel like I had to entertain or talk about anything. She was just there. And she would reach out every day, and sometimes I would go weeks without responding. And she would continue just texting me as normal, sending me love, and really was my rock through my grief and still to this date.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:13:57

So lucky to have that kind of support. And, again, to the supporters, like, the hardest part is probably not taking it personally. I would think as a supporter, like, you've done something wrong or you're not doing it well enough or they just don't need you or want you around anymore. But when you are in the depths of those darkest days, capital d, capital d, for some, impossible to put into words what one needs or how to, again, get back to a different episode, answer that question. How are you? What do you need? How's today? Sometimes there just really is no words. But I wanna circle back to something else you said, which was your island. Tell us about your island. What does that mean for you?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:14:31

So my island was really my bed in my bedroom. It was my safe space where I didn't need to face the world or anything. And, I probably lived on that island for a year. Despite all of the supports and resources I had at the time, that is what I needed at that time for my survival. As I figured out what is life without my mom, what is life without caretaking. At the same time, outside of that island, I really immersed myself back into work in the caretaking realm with children and had a difficult time with finding balance and getting off of the island for for a significant period of time. And so

Sarah Peterson [: 00:15:17

if you were giving a griever advice about the island, would you say, like, follow your instinct or push yourself to get out of the island, or or how would a griever know, like, am I on my island too much, or is this what I need?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:15:30

I would say definitely use discernment because there were times where I could have pushed myself a little bit more to just do little things, like putting away laundry for 10 minutes or taking a bath. But at the time, it just felt like I couldn't even get up. I couldn't lift my head. I couldn't lift my arms unless I was jumping out to do my work. So I say, trust your intuition, trust your body, your heart, what feels right for you in that moment, but also look for those opportunities to push yourself a little bit each day.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:16:08

Yeah. I agree with that. And I one time had a a bereaved mom tell me, there's 3 things, Sarah. 1, do only what you must. 2, get out of bed every day, at least a little. And 3, eat something every day. And she said, if you can do those three things, I'm not gonna worry about you. And I thought, okay.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:16:26

That's fair. I can handle those three things. And then I'm like, but wait. What must I actually do? And in my case, there were things as a mother I still had to continue to do for our son. And then I I was this is wild. I was on this walk through my neighborhood. It was, like, 6 AM. Probably only a month after the crash, my ribs were broken.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:16:43

I'm kinda, like, hobbling along at 6 AM in the rain and in the cold, and somebody yells to me, Sarah, is that you? And it was somebody I knew and actually a local grief counselor, and and she, of all people, god bless her, humble humility because what she said is, like, I I, of all people, can't believe that I'm gonna say this, but I haven't reached out because I didn't know what to say. And I said, well, we're here now. And she said, I just need you to hear one thing, and that's if you want it, you have to work for it. And then I started to connect that with what must I do. And when I say everything is on the table amidst some grief experiences, like showering, doing your laundry, Everything was on the table for me. I mean, by the grace of my dear friend who washed my hair for a year, I had clean hair. It was only because of her that I had clean hair because I really don't think I had the strength to wash my hair. And she would know it, and she'd be like, hey.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:17:37

I got I got a 20 minute spot. Can you be here? I'll wash your hair for you. I mean, that sounds maybe ridiculous because I know there's grievers who do wash their hair still. I was not one of them.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:17:48

Did you have a hard time with stuff like that? Yeah. It's really hard.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:17:51

It was so hard. It's hard. I mean, now I can kind of, like, chuckle at how hard it was mostly because I can say, wow. Actually, my hair is wet right now because I was able to wash it this morning without too much angst. But, you know, when you think about what must I do is take a shower, one of those musts. And then to work backwards, like, okay. What's the work? Because what I want, I have to work for. What's the work involved? Are those the kind of conversations you're telling folks they should maybe challenge themselves to have Yes.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:18:16

Amidst this? Absolutely. Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:18:18

What do I want? What's the strategy for getting there? Yeah. Because it is easy to get sucked into the island.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:18:24

Yeah. It's really hard. You have to take little steps to create that energy to gain some momentum in your healing journey, at least in my case.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:18:33

Yeah. And what was it like at home for you? Did you have support at home?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:18:36

I did. My partner was amazing. He had been there for me, taking care of me for the last 10 years, and I was in those early stages of my grief before my mom had passed when I met him. And I had never had anyone take care of me on that level. Anything I asked for, he would do. He would get right away. No question. I think when I lost my mom, it was difficult for him to know what to do for me because I was so shut down.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:19:10

And he tried to maintain a stoic persona and just be there. We found a way to communicate, and he would just wait for me to ask and tell him what I needed specifically in detail, and he would do that thing. And that worked for us.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:19:28

That's good. And, you know, one of these earlier episodes was called the new languages of grief, which kind of gives grievers and supporters tangible language to ask for and offer the most meaningful type of support. So if you haven't heard that, listen to it. But a lot of your grief experience to me sounds like period of contemplation and or diversion, and the contemplation can quickly turn into isolation if we aren't challenging ourselves to do what we must and find the way to get there. But in order to really effectively communicate that with, say, your partner, it's such an incredible tool to say, yeah. I know. I'm not, like, super engaged, but that's part of how I'm comforting myself and learning to live in this most harsh reality. Do you kind of feel like that was your language?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:20:12

Yeah. It definitely was. There was a lot of contemplation and introspection. Another part of my island was going for long drives in my car every single day. It was almost like I was able to get away, driving to nowhere for 2 or 3 hours, and just thinking. And, eventually, I was able to move from contemplation to talking to my mom for the first time after about a year of her passing, and really lean into that acceptance that she is gone. And I'm ready to talk to her in energetic spirit and let her know that I miss her and I love her. So that was a big part of my healing journey and also a part of that island.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:21:00

Yeah. And what I hear too is and I'll tell clients this a lot. Like, your grief is not the relationship you want with this person, and yet it's the one you have. And so, like, any, quote, unquote, new relationship, it requires investigation. It requires understanding what your part is, what their part is, where the boundaries lie, how much energy you have to give to it. And I think that's what I hear you talking about during that period of contemplation, just sort of reckoning what this new relationship with your mom was gonna look like and then not being scared to have it be the case. Yeah. Because I hear that your grief is your relationship with her.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:21:35

And through the grief, you find love, connection, meaning. Is that all true? Am I just am I just winging it here?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:21:41

Yes. It's all a 100% accurate. And in being able to do that, I gained the ability to really remember her the way she was and not just see her as someone who was sick and who I felt I strongly needed to support by myself. I was able to see her as this amazing beacon of light that cared for my brother and I and our family and for strangers and just really live in that aspect of her true human self.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:22:19

So, like, let's say you were talking to a griever who was, you know, in those days of, like, I just don't understand how this is gonna pan out for me. I I don't think I will find a path. I don't think I'll feel the level of joy I once felt or connection. You know? What would you say to them?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:22:33

I would say, give it time.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:22:35

Give it time. And what else? Because you did more than time. You worked harder than just letting the time pass. You did so many things. What did you do to get to where you are today, almost 4 years later, with this deep sense of connection and meaning and love around your grief? And not to say you still aren't sad. I know for sure you're sad and wish your mom was here, and simultaneously can embrace the relationship you have now to the extent that's available. Right?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:23:03

Yeah. I did a lot of things after I was able to get myself out of my island with help from my therapist. I was connected with a psychiatrist. I started taking antidepressant medication, which helped tremendously at the time. I even dove into Ketamine infusion therapy with my psychiatrist, which was a massive catalyst in my growth and healing process, as well as EMDR. I started taking on breath work. I learned about a Hawaiian healing modality called and later became a certified practitioner in both breath work and which gave me a sense of purpose and direction, something outside of me. And through all of these healing modalities, I really understood the value of mindfulness.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:24:00

And just being in the moment and feeling the feelings and being able to see them for what they truly are and love them and be able to integrate them to help kind of propel you into your next stage, your next phase, and just taking it one step at a time. And through all of that, I was able to increase my capacity and kind of move into something that was new for me, which was something greater than myself spirituality. And that created a pretty massive transformation in my life.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:24:34

And, Whitney, the honestly, the biggest thing that I saw you move into from in this new version of you was this almost resistance to fear. Because all along the way, all those modalities you talked about had fear behind them. Like, you as a 9 year old anticipatory griever were so conditioned to be living in this fear for decades, for crying out loud. And so for you to, like, truly face your reality, I mean, I know you were scared, and you did it anyway. And was it worth it?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:25:04

It was so worth it. Yes.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:05

She just, like, looked up at me and met my eyes and was like, yes, Sarah. It was so worth it. She is serious. And let Whitney's story inspire you. And, you know, maybe not all of us are available to psychology, psychiatry, kinda mean taking long drives. But one of those pieces, what which one of those things could be available to you? Or where could you recreate one piece of the type of support that Whitney's talking about today? Because I bet it's there. Even if it's with a friend, even if it's that you think about that conversation I had in the park this morning and and picture the strength and fortitude it took both of us to get off our island to take the shower. You know, something of this story is available to you, if not all.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:46

Right?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:25:47

Yes. Absolutely. Find that spark. Find that one thing.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:51

And the other part of the languages of grief that I hear you talk about is the diversion, which I think is interesting because I hear folks kind of battling guilt when they distract themselves in their grief. And 2 things. 1, like, you must go to work. A lot of people must still go to work. And so how can you turn that into a source of comfort? Like, hey. I'm actually allowed to set down my heavy load and do this thing today because before my loss, I was all these different things. I don't know, Whitney, if you remember doing that exercise with me where we talked about all the different parts of you. Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:23

What was yours? You drew something.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:26:25

Yeah. I drew a butterfly, I believe. And in each part of the wing, I wrote who I am, what I am, including an amazing daughter and a leader in our community and Woman of the Year nominee.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:44

Oh my gosh. That's right, guys. She's here today with us.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:26:48

And all of the things that reminded me that I am so much more than my grief. I am so much more than a lifelong caretaker and neglector of self.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:27:00

Yeah. And I think that's when we're exploring this new relationship through grief with the person we lost. When I talk about having boundaries with it, it's like if the person were here, even my beloved daughter, like, the day before she died, I was more than Marley's mom. I mean, the moment she died for a long time, it felt like that was the only thing I was because the feelings were so intense and so overwhelming. And yet the truth remained that I was still a mother to my son, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a worker, etcetera. And so I think that through the new languages of grief, obviously, but especially diversion or distraction, we are allowed to reengage with those other pieces of us so that we are living our most meaningful life in this reality. Agree?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:27:43

Yes. And create new aspects of ourselves. Oh, like you did. Yes. Identity shift. You can be whatever and whoever you want to be, and the grief will always be a part of you. But it doesn't have to be everything, and you can discover that life is beautiful and amazing and infinite, and that brings me so much excitement, joy, and hope every single day. And I

Sarah Peterson [: 00:28:08

just if you're a griever out there and that made you or your stomach flip, because I think at times, both Whitney and I, if we were told, hey. Life is beautiful and amazing. We'd be like, middle finger or not for me or that's not gonna be my story. Like, it's just when you're in the throes of the deepest depths, it's really hard to believe that if even you can believe it a little bit. And that's okay. Don't worry about believing it today. Just hear it. Just hear that you've got 2 people who've experienced profound loss, who've worked really hard to get to where we are today, and that is part of our life now.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:28:41

That is part of our life now because you didn't just lose your mom either. Did you, Whitney? What else did you lose?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:28:47

Yeah. A couple weeks after my mom passed away, one of my best friends from childhood was in hospice with a terminal disease, and she passed away as well. And then a few weeks after that, my grandfather passed away, my mom's father.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:29:05

Gosh. So many losses. And I don't know about you, but for me, having my daughter die and then 3 months later my dad died, I almost felt like I was definitely unable to, but also a little bit guilty that I couldn't give him the grief that had Marley not died, I would have given him. Did you have that experience?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:29:23

Yeah. I definitely still live with guilt, feeling like I was so deep in my grief with my mom that I wasn't able to give the attention to my grandfather or my best friend and grieve them in the way that I would have. And that guilt is a hard thing.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:29:44

It is a hard thing. It really is. And, like, I don't know. When I'm sitting with a client, I'm like, okay. Guilt the way that I tell the story for myself about guilt is did I break the law, or did I hurt somebody on purpose knowing it was gonna hurt them and do it anyway? And if it doesn't fit those criteria, what's a different word? Right? Like, uncomfortable or deep sadness, or even I grieve the fact that I was unable to grieve my dad the way I would have had my daughter not died, I would have grieved him so differently. And so then we must dig deep, you guys. We must dig deep to find that internal radical self compassion that says I'm I am doing my best here. And, I mean, it's not funny because we're talking about loss here, but, I mean, at one point, I just remember being like, okay.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:30:31

So I'm as low as the ground, and I remember taking my palm and putting it on the ground and thinking, my dad died, but I can't go lower. This is the low. There's no deeper depth that I could achieve in an effort to feel more sad about this loss. And can we find room for that to be just be? Right. Right? Yeah. You couldn't get sadder, could you? No. I don't think you could have been sadder. I'm like, I couldn't frown harder now because he's gone too.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:31:02

It was just, like, so all encompassing. Yeah. Absolutely. So if you're a griever who has lost somebody and then find yourself losing again and again in such a short time frame, just pause. Just be with the sadness and let that be what it is. Because believe it or not, I mean, I've had to come to the place where I feel like the depth of my sadness in January February of 2017 after losing these two people was so deep that how could I have not been grieving my dad? It felt like my thoughts were consumed with Marley, and I was so sad that how could I not have been also grieving him. And I can't help but say the same from what I watched with your experience. Right.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:31:43

Yeah.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:31:43

I think that's a good point. Something to remember for myself.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:31:46

Mhmm. Some compassion thoughts. Compassion. Let's see. Oh, the other thing I wanna talk about, like, when we're talking about the diversion, like, especially work, a lot of times I hear people say, like, oh, everybody at work says I'm back too soon, and then the other half of the people are like, you need to get back to work. Like, what was your experience? Did a certain amount of time feel like the right time to take off? Did you just trust your instinct when it was time to go back?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:32:10

Yeah. I did. I don't know if it was right or wrong or if there is even such a thing. I was very lucky with my organization. We actually had just transitioned from our CEO at the time, and we had an interim person come in from out of town. He was so amazing. And then he and our board chair told me just to take the time I needed to come back when I was ready to come back, and not to worry about anything they had it handled. And I, at the time, had never even taken a sick day in 10 years with the organization.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:32:47

And so it just felt really amazing to have that support and not have to worry about that part of my life. And I ended up taking about a month off, a couple weeks before my mom passed, and a couple weeks after until it felt right to go back. And it felt healthy to have a little bit of a distraction, and working with youth, with kids, brings a different level of joy, and so that definitely helped with my healing process. And then shortly after I returned, we had a new CEO start. And I feel very lucky to have had her because the grieving process is hard. And sometimes we don't show up our best selves, and sometimes we can challenge and push back because we already feel like we're out of control, that we've lost so much. And I was already going through such a massive transition in my life, having all of these changes in my workplace that I had been for a decade was so difficult. But she had so much compassion and patience for me and was also a component of my growth and where I am today.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:33:59

And I'm really grateful for her and my organization and that support.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:34:04

Yeah. And I think that's such a miss in our culture. Like, not everybody has that supervisor who understands, but, hey. If you're a supervisor and you're listening to this, be compassionate, give space, allow for mistakes, allow for extra time. Like, where can you find a softening of the edges for the people under your wings as they go through hard times? And whether that's, like, a loss via death or I am facing housing insecurity, or, I mean, all of these millions of ways in which our fellow people experience grief and loss. You know? Where can we shift the culture to create some softer landings for folks simply by being aware that their brain is not working as well as it might on a different day. Yeah. Can we have room for that? I'll never forget one time.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:34:49

I went to pick up the my son and my niece from summer camp. And as I'm walking out, I realized I had one of my husband's shoes on and one of my shoes on. And it took me like, I got in my car and drove across town, walked through the school, walked back, and then by the time I was getting in my car, I'm like, I have 2 new shoes on. They're not even both my shoes. But that's the level of, I think, disengagement from the details one might experience when they're going through this. And there's great books on the neurology of grief, so it's not like I'm just making this stuff up here. But, yeah, where can you find that compassion for people to let them really show up and do their best, which might look really different on a day that's in a grief wave.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:35:28

Yeah. I think human centered approach always.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:31

Yeah. And as the griever, being compassionate with yourself. Like, oh, crap. I wore 2 different shoes today.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:35:36

And that's okay.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:38

And that's okay because somehow I'm still doing my best, baby. I'm still somehow doing my best. New trend. Right? That's one thing I do tell grievers too is, like, well, this 1st year is gonna be so brutal. And the part of this that I can tell you is you will remember very little of it. Mhmm. Do you find that to be true? Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:57

Like, what the heck did I do all day? I mean, I know I was in my bed, you were in your bed, but outside of that, it's kind of a blur.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:36:03

It is a blur. I don't know how it is. Almost been 4 years. I don't know what's happened. It's been a blur. It's been a journey.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:36:10

Yeah. What can you say, like, pre loss, Whitney, loss occurs, this opportunity for incredible growth and transformation, and here I am on the other side of it so far. Right? Like, that never stops. The other side just keeps going forever. But, you know, what are the biggest things about you, your daily life, your abilities that have grown and been cultivated by this experience?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:36:33

Well, for the first time in my life, I'm taking care of myself. I'm able to eat food. I'm able to do things like yoga and get out in nature and just be a human being. Connect make connections with people. I was never able to do that because I didn't have the capacity. I didn't have the time. And not just doing those basic human things, which I didn't know were basic human things before because I was so stuck in my grief, in my high alert state. But beyond that, being able to do whatever I choose to do.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:37:08

Oh, like full autonomy. Yes. Wow. It's amazing.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:37:12

Does it ever feel like too much pressure? Yes. Because there's so many things. Right?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:37:18

There's so many things. And the 2nd year after losing my mom, I really catapulted into that realization of I can do anything, and I am going to do everything. And so I took multiple courses, master classes, gained several different certifications. I've started my own business, grew in my organization that I had been in for so long, and I may do it differently next time. Or if I could travel back in time, I may not have taken on so much, but it was a great experience for me to see my potential.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:37:58

Absolutely. And Whitney and I are both eights on the Enneagram, so I think we are both dream catchers. And catching dreams is really fun and easy and replenishing for us. And then, yeah, it does sometimes magically turn into a little bit too much pressure. So that can be part of the self care plan too. Yes. Okay. So this is not a shameless plug for self.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:38:18

I am curious, and I want somebody else to be able to hear, like, of all the things that we did together, therapist to client in your grief work, like, are there a few things that stick out most to you?

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:38:29

Well, I know I've said this before, but I don't think I would be here. Oh. Without you, excuse me, I don't know that there's one thing. It was being able every single week still to this day to come here to your office and have an unapologetic hour with you to do EMDR, to shift the stories and the mindset and the limiting beliefs, the connections that you've provided for me, like the Ketamine therapy, which was incredible for my healing, and, yeah, just all of it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:39:07

Well, I just love that you used my words, unapologetic hour. Mhmm. Because if ever that's what I can give to anybody is an unapologetic hour, or if you're in my social circle and it's 10 minutes, that's all I can do. But if as a supporter, you only and I say only with quotations because it's actually a it's a big job in the sense that it does so much. I don't think it's a big job in the sense that you have to do so much, but it says so much and it means so much, so it's a big job. So what can you do to cultivate an unapologetic chunk of time for your griever? And as a griever, look at your life and say, do I have an unapologetic chunk of time every week, every month, every whatever it is for you, Do I have that right now? And if you don't, how can you get it? Is it through a therapist? Is it through a friend that you could coach using even the new languages of grief? Or on our website, we have the grief supporters manual to help guide them into supporting you for you to have an unapologetic hour. Because I think you're right, Whitney. Like, that but, I mean, sometimes, Whitney would come in here and she just, like, flop and then kinda melt into the couch.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:40:15

My couch is really comfortable, so that part's easy. But you could see that, wow. This is the time where Whitney has reserved herself to be in it and not alone because it can also be scary to, like, go deep in it and be alone.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:40:28

Yeah. I think it is so important to not do it alone. You're not alone. You don't have to do it alone. And whether you have access to a therapist or not, finding that person, or that resource, There's so many available so that you have those tools and opportunities to just be in it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:41:01

Yeah. Be in it and not scared because you're alone, and you can't avoid it. It will follow you, and it will require such incredible courage to turn towards your suffering, to turn toward the reality that you're living life without this person. But until we are able to find it within ourselves and enhance our support systems enough so that we can turn toward it, we really can't transform it. And all the things Whitney's talked today talked to us today about are her journey and her paths to transformation. And the person who's sitting here across from me at my desk right now is an entirely different person than the one I met almost 4 years ago. And I wanna say that's all because Whitney showed up, got scared, pushed through, still gets scared. I think you're like, you still get scared. I still get scared. Right? Life is scary.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:41:44

Of course. And the fear is not driven by an inability to have the conversation or inability to turn toward the suffering. Yeah. Let Whitney be your inspiration. She is nominated as woman of the year for a reason. Okay, guys? It's for a reason. Thank you so much for being here today, Whitney. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:42:01

It means so much to me that you're willing to do this.

Whitney Eskleson [: 00:42:03

Thank you so much for having me and being such a massive support for me and so many in the community.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:42:11

Well, it's truly my greatest honor. So we'll see you guy we'll hear you guys. We'll talk to you guys next time. Have a wonderful day. Thanks, everybody. Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:42:41

We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.