Episode 4
Grief Without Judgment: Embracing Unique Experiences and the Healing Path -4
Join Sarah Peterson, Marlis Beier, and Dean Sharpe as they tackle the challenging aspects of personal grief and societal expectations in episode 4 of Enduring Grief. The discussion spans topics such as the emotional attachment to the belongings of loved ones, anticipatory grief, and the importance of setting personal markers for healing. Dr. Dean Sharpe shares comforting insights on embracing love despite the inevitability of loss, while Marlis Beier discusses the emotional journey, including anger and acceptance. This episode is a must-listen for anyone grappling with grief, offering practical strategies for letting go and encouraging self-awareness in your unique journey. Discover how to find hope and meaning even in the darkest times.
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Transcript
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Sarah Peterson [:Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Morning. I'm often joined by 2 incredible guests, Doctor. Marlis Beier and Doctor. Dean Sharpe, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's walk through this journey together. Welcome to today's podcast where we are gonna be talking about navigating the brutal necessities of grief. I'm here today with my dear friends, doctor Dean Sharpe and doctor Marlis Beier. And we wanna talk to you about what it means to deal with everything from the paperwork to the wedding ring to the things left in the closet and what it feels like in our world to be told when it's right for you to change up your environment or get rid of the things or whatever that looks like for you. I know for me, it was quite a journey to let go of some of my daughter's things, and it would have been nice to have permission to just really do it in my way. I think I was lucky. I did have a lot of permission because I did take my time and still am taking my time, but I don't think that that's the general what happens out there in the public. What do you guys think?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Oh, there's expectations about how quickly we should be getting through grief. Like, why do you still wear that wedding ring when they've already died? And people sometimes wear the wedding ring and till the end of their life because they're never done being married and or so many remembrances that it doesn't feel right in your heart yet to let them go.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. They mean something to still have the wedding ring on. Or in my case, I kept my daughter's dirty clothes in the laundry basket for, I think, years because it allowed me to feel somewhat normal, like she was still a part of my house and her things were still there, and it was a comfort. I think that's one of the bigger questions is is this thing, this physical thing, whether that's the wedding ring or the clothes in the basket, is it bringing me comfort, or is it a source of distress? And nobody can really decide that for us, can they, Dean?
Dean Sharpe MD [:No. They can't. I think that there's also lots of times the sense as time goes by that you might forget the person. And so oftentimes, we end up holding on to things tightly because we think it would be somehow not honoring of the person who has died if we were to get rid of that stuff and run the risk maybe of forgetting or not being able to picture them and quite the clarity that we could day to day when they were with us all the time.
Sarah Peterson [:Gosh. That's such a good point. I can feel that one because especially when it comes to, like, smells. Yes. How can we keep that smell forever?
Marlis Beier, MD [:I still haven't washed the shirt that I have the closet of my adopted son who took his life because it's like the tangible reminder of his presence.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Absolutely. You can touch it. There's a piece of them that's still here. So it makes sense that if we were letting that go, we would be afraid of also losing the memory.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well and I lost the practice of obstetrics and gynecology when MS progressed to the point that my partners decided I was no longer of benefit to the practice and threw me out, which was really one of the greatest griefs in my life. And, you know, last night I watched Call the Midwife again, just to remember. It's like holding on to some way of remembering what that whole identity and meaning in my life was and how much I loved it.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Makes sense you'd wanna hang on to the pieces that you can from it. And then there's those who can swiftly clean out the closet and swiftly empty out the laundry basket or immediately remove their wedding ring, and that's okay too. Right?
Marlis Beier, MD [:It's really okay. How will they know?
Sarah Peterson [:Go ahead, Dean.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah. Well, my dad was an example of that when my mother died. Really, within a week, 2 weeks, he had cleaned out her closet and gotten rid of all the stuff. And in many ways, it was his way of making it real and knowing that he was moving into an entirely different part of his life. And I also think it was partially his own denial, but it was clearly the way he did it, and it was faster than I probably would have. And so I have a tendency to judge that because it's not my way. And I think it's a place where we always need to be careful that people are going to do this in very different ways.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, he had huge anticipatory grief. So I think he grieved the loss of your mom for the months or year and a half that she was getting treatment for pancreatic cancer. And many people, when they have long periods of letting go of the person month after month after month and knowing that the loss is coming are more emotionally and logistically ready to let go.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I wanna go back real quick to what Dean said. Listeners, just pause. Check your judgment. That's so much of why we're doing this is so that we each are encouraged to just check our judgment because even as somebody who has done the grief walk and counsels people in grief, there are times in which it is still so hard for me to check my judgment. I'll be sitting with the client who's not super angry about the death of their loved one, and I've, like, find myself wanting to get them pissed because I'm pissed about my own stuff. So whether that's just transference or judgment, I think it kind of comes out the same when you're the on the receiving end of that. And so, yeah, listeners, pause.
Sarah Peterson [:Check your judgment. Notice that the way you would do it is not the way that I will do it or the people in your life will do it because we're all so different. And John James, who wrote the grief recovery handbook, he would always talk about the uniqueness of the grief experience is driven by the uniqueness of the relationship we were in with the person. Can't replicate it from one to the next. So just acknowledging that even though it's hard, the way you would do it is not always the way the other person will do it. Rarely, actually, is almost never. Almost never. It's called agenda.
Sarah Peterson [:So how does one decide when it's the right time? How will we help people figure out when it's right for them? Because I know in session, I have a lot of grievers asking me, it's been 2 years, sir. Should I be emptying out the closet? Should I be how do you think I should answer that?
Marlis Beier, MD [:I think that the answers come from within, and the ambivalence and the not knowing is the role of the unconscious. And so if we can become aware of all the unaddressed issues, and we all know what they are, it's guilt and anger and regret and confusion and fear about how will it be without this loss in the future. One day, one moment, it becomes clear. And so I encourage people just to trust their own inner wisdom, and don't let anyone tell you when it is.
Sarah Peterson [:I agree.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah. I think it's a process of time passing and continuing to live on and continuing to evolve what the relationship is going to be now, that the person is no longer present in your life physically in the way they were. And people find different ways to be in relationship with those who have passed. For some people, the person has died. They're out of their life. They move on. They have more experiences in their life. Their life becomes larger than just their life was before with that person.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And so they relatively short period of time, a year, whatever, they are moving on. And other people continue to dream about the person who's passed. They continue to have ongoing conversations, ongoing conversations through the day. I mean, many an elderly person and people that I know who have lost their spouse of decades will continue to be in the kitchen and be conversing with the person as if they were really there. And I don't think there's a problem with that. And I have a friend who actually is never gonna take off his wedding ring and has actually recommitted his marriage to the person who passed forevermore. And it's just different ways of being with it.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah. And his house looks exactly like it was when she was alive. Wow. It's been a long time. 11 years.
Sarah Peterson [:There's no, script. There's no road map for what this looks like. Yeah. And I can absolutely feel the peace of having a conversation with the person who's gone. I often walk it with my dog, and I will find myself, Actually, I find myself just saying my daughter's name because I'm like, gosh. I haven't heard it in a while. Mhmm. Or I haven't said it in a while.
Sarah Peterson [:This is my child. I should be saying this name all the time. So I'll just say, Marley Marley Marley, you know, so I'm out of breath because that feels good. But then also, I do talk to her, and there's comfort there. So I do it. And I think that's the ultimate process. The ultimate road map for this is, do I find comfort or distress in this action? And if it's comfort, then keep doing it and listen to your intuition, especially when it comes to getting rid of the stuff. And, honestly, there's a practicality behind it too because not all of us have physical room to hang on to everything forever.
Sarah Peterson [:It's just not possible. Or I had a client once who lost a child and had they were in the process of selling their home. So child dies, and within a month, they had to sell and, like, finish the sale of their home and move to the new one, which was filled with all these dreams that had recently been crushed, obviously. And that required that they leave the safety of this environment. I mean, that would be really hard. I think that would be really hard. That's 2 griefs. 2 griefs.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Marlis is here.
Sarah Peterson [:Marlis is here.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And I every time I find a feather, she's here.
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Gosh. I had the most incredible dream the other night where, normally, in my dreams about her, I am fighting the whole trying to get the people in the dream to realize that she's gone and this isn't actually happening. And I waste all my energy of the dream instead of being with her arguing about whether or not she's really here in the dream. So in this last dream I had, I instead just went around and asked everybody there if they could see her. And everybody said yes. And then I said, well, can somebody please take some pictures so I can see the pictures to believe it? And they said yes. And then I orchestrated a beautiful interaction between Marley and other people and got to sit back and watch something that was so precious and beautiful. It was really wild.
Sarah Peterson [:This is the first time I'm telling it and not sobbing my eyes out because it was such an incredible and profound dream and really feels like one I've been waiting for a long time.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah. I think, you know, the Celts argue that a part of the grieving process that is an important transition that occurs is moving from the place where your experience of the other person is their absence and the loss, and moving into a place where they become present for you in an ongoing way. And that I think can happen through paying attention to dreams, paying attention to the things that come to your mind when walking in nature or simply, you know, as you listen to a piece of music or as the person I was talking about just a few minutes ago who's in the kitchen talking to their spouse who's no longer there and stopping every now and again to listen for what they might have said back is going from the place where this person who used to be here physically and right here is still here, is not just absent, but is now still here in a new way. And what that new way is ultimately gonna be, I think, is different for everybody.
Sarah Peterson [:Absolutely. Go ahead, Marlis.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, I think that you've just in part described the long process of healing grief from going from the intense emotions of shock and pain and distress
Sarah Peterson [:Rejection. Rejection. Of has occurred.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Oh, yeah. No. Resistance. Yeah. No. It's not the way
Sarah Peterson [:I want it. That red stamp that's, like, rejected. I will not accept this. Okay. Here here I am with my anger. How do you like it? It's like my intensity. Sarah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Just a minute here.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm sliding. I'm sliding. Resistance isn't strong enough.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Okay. Like holy freaking rage.
Sarah Peterson [:We can swear. We're listed as explicit. But yeah. Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Oh, we are. Oh, well, then holy fucking rage.
Sarah Peterson [:Holy fucking rage.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Holy fucking rage. I mean, really intense. And then being willing to lean into the pain, which is what this podcast is. Yes. It is. It's willing to lean into the pain because if you are willing to lean in to the very raw, difficult emotions and not avoid them, like our culture would like you to, but willing to lean into them, you'll have a healing dream where you get to see a more peaceful acceptance of what is.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Oh my gosh. I have so many things to say right now, guys. I have so many things. Like, one, this is living in this reality in the most meaningful way. Right? Is to find relationship with what is. And so by leaning in, you have an opportunity to find a relationship with what is, which is the grief. And in my paradigm, also the new relationship.
Sarah Peterson [:The grief is the new relationship. Right? In my paradigm, only mine.
Dean Sharpe MD [:It certainly is. No. The one I subscribe to. Huge component of the new relationship. Yeah. I mean, it is different over time and one becomes more peaceful with it, but it can still sneak up on you at any time and overwhelm you. Waves of sudden grief.
Marlis Beier, MD [:A sudden upwelling of grief. Well or a sudden upwelling of rage because as we're talking about items and things, and I may sound like all zen, but
Sarah Peterson [:And she looks zen too.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah. So I have someone with whom I had this long relationship with, like, my husband's best friend lived at our house for times. We took him on family vacations. I mean, like, a lot of time together. And in his dying time, he turned into a putz. He just was mean, vicious. I mean, if you wanna describe an unpeaceful dying and death time, It was him, and he took me as the person to take out his rage on, and I'm still working on forgiving him. And his picture is upside down in my closet because I have not been able to turn it right side up yet. S
Sarah Peterson [:o how's that for being utterly human? That is perfect. And, again, it comes back to our does this bring you comfort or distress and allowing that to be your guide intuitively? What's the funny face for?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Oh, I'm just I'm still in distress.
Sarah Peterson [:Right now, see now you're sweating. God. I know.
Marlis Beier, MD [:To you. I want to be, like, zen and enlightened and not let anything bother me anymore, but it's not true.
Sarah Peterson [:You're still bothered at times. But, I mean, what permission is available to say just because this person died does not mean that they are automatically a saint and that we must subscribe to this protocol of creating an altar for them and all the pictures are now holy. That's just not the way of the world. And, again, I think our culture shoves it down our throat that it should be just a certain way. So thank you for sharing that with us because it's not easy.
Marlis Beier, MD [:No. And I hear so many people talk about how they were so devastated when their father died. And my father was kind of an asshole. And I just never had a really meaningful, supportive relationship with him, and I don't miss him. And it's really hard to hear other people talk about their great relationship with their father.
Sarah Peterson [:And yeah, not your story.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And on the other hand, my mother died 25 years ago almost, and I still find myself cooking things she used to cook in the kitchen and remembering her and pulling out recipes that are typed on her old IBM Selectric typewriter that had the font that looked like script, and it's like, that's my mom. Mhmm. I mean, that is a place where her absence has been turned into an ongoing presence, an ongoing way of being in relationship, which continues on. And my daughters will call me up now sometimes and say, so could you take a picture of that recipe of grandma's and text it to me because I'm gonna make that. So it even goes on.
Sarah Peterson [:It does go on. And the other part when I was so excited because I had so many things to say, I wanted to go back to just this idea that we found comfort in these things, whether it's boundaries with the stuff keeping the picture turned over or enjoying the recipes that are available to you as her legacy lives on. If you are in the beginning stages of grief, a lot of times, it's hard to believe that this is possible for you. Yes. And I just wanna call that out because in the first two years of my grief experience, I did not believe that this was possible for me, that I would be in a place where a dream like that would be comforting or actually getting rid of some of Marley's things would feel like the right thing to do. I I just really couldn't believe that. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, that ain't me, I just wanna say, maybe it's not, but maybe it is. And go ahead.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Well, in those beginning stages of grief, I think all I said to Sarah was, can you take another breath? Yeah. It's really just survival. I mean, don't even think about stuff. It's just how can you get through the next moment of such intense pain
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Marlis Beier, MD [:And loss. And then the next hour, I mean and all you really all it is just can you take the next breath?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yep. I think that one of the things that I would like to really say, especially for people who are gonna be supporting people who have had a loss, is that in caring for yourself as the supporting person, and truly, it is really hard to continually be with someone you care about who is suffering that much. And the tendency is to want them to get through it because it's gonna make you feel better if they get through it quicker, and the reality is they're gonna go through it just as fast as they're gonna go through it. So there's a place where it's really important as the caregiver to constantly keep in mind that grief does ultimately get healed. People do find the place where they can live more peacefully with the reality. And so a part of keeping yourself self healthy is to recognize without saying anything, but to just trust that the person's going to be okay. And that it will eventually reach a different place than it currently is. And so even Marlis is being able to hold on to the suffering in the moment and just tell you that you just need to take another breath is in a huge way, just believing that you are going to be able to take another breath, and that ultimately, you're gonna get to a different place than you are currently.
Sarah Peterson [:Gosh. You guys had to really believed that to be with me on all those dark days. Like, to a good heavy reminder for you as a supporter. See, I would offer a different perspective.
Sarah Peterson [:Good. Give it to us. I New perspective.
Marlis Beier, MD [:I think trusting that someone's gonna heal is your own agenda. And I think you can't even I can't even have an agenda that you'll come to peace or that I've seen people die with still such rage and unhealed grief about some loss in their life that, you know, maybe in the moments or maybe in the time when they were in that unconscious space before they were dying, they did that healing work. But I don't, you know, I don't know that everybody does heal perfectly to peace from loss. I think that everyone is just on their own journey of loss, grief, and how they find more of themselves in that process.
Sarah Peterson [:I agree with both. And so lucky I'm here as the third party who can tie this all together for us, which as a tool for coping in your grief, I challenge and encourage grievers to define healing for themselves. How will I know I am on a path to healing? Because I do think that, generally, the human spirit allows the because once the shock wears off, the grief changes. Once the reality of your life sets in, the grief does shift when you're not also fighting so hard to reject it. So there there's a piece of healing that I think happens just as part of the human spirit comes to terms with what has occurred. And if we pause and set intention to really quantify and qualify what healing looks like in very achievable ways, like, I will know that I'm on the path to healing if I laugh hard at something that's funny. Right? Like, that happens to most people even in their grief.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yes.
Sarah Peterson [:And if we can turn that into a measurement of this healing, I think that it is more achievable for people. But I think in our culture, we're missing that intention. I think we're missing the tool to say, oh, healing doesn't mean that I am all tied up, meet with a bow and a cute little box ready to just live like this never happened. And that's one thing you used to say to me all the time, Marlys, was healing has to include the wound. Yes. And so if we can learn to say the healing includes the wound and, no, it doesn't mean I'm gonna return to what once was, but instead be this version of myself and live in the most meaningful way, then I I do think healing is available to more people than maybe they believe. It is always available. Did I tie that up? Did I did I bring it together?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Well, yes. Good.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yes. I think it's just a greater definition of healing than maybe I meant. For me, healing is coming to peace with what is, and I'm, like, going deep into the healing of the original loss wound, which usually is, like, between 5. And there are a lot of people don't heal that before they die. And whatever grief they have in their life just retriggers that wound, and they aren't willing to do the kind of work it takes to get conscious.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I agree. And that could be its own podcast.
Marlis Beier, MD [:It definitely could. I'm with you.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's go. So when grievers come and they say, you know, how will I know, Sarah, that it's time to get rid of the things? One of a couple of the things I tell them to do as just real practical things, tools, or strategies is to practical things, tools, or strategies is to practice giving something away, practice thinning out one area of these items. So for me, that looked like Marley's, I her baby walker. She hadn't used it in a year. It wasn't something that was still in my house. It was tucked in the garage. It was not part of our daily visual experience. So over time, I realized that I was less attached to the walker.
Sarah Peterson [:So I gave that away with intention to somebody who needed it, and I measured. I took a pulse on the situation. How did that feel? What was the hardest part about it? What was the what was the best part about it? And if only the best part was that space is now available on my garage shelf to hold now my father's things who is gone too because I have his stuff. But looking at it, feeling inside your heart, what was okay with that and what was not okay with that so you can strategize the next thing. What do you guys think about that approach?
Marlis Beier, MD [:Very brilliant. Brilliant. Because it's very conscious, and it's a great example of the willingness to feel and be aware of the emotions that you're having on the way by. And one of the things we haven't talked about that I would love to mention is ritual as you are letting go of either stuff or, you know, you can make a whole ritual just with giving away the wedding ring, or you can make a ritual with giving away the baby walker, or I mean, this is a ridiculous example, and it was almost like a ritual as I went through all my grandmother's clothes and her underwear drawer was such an example of just feeling so intimate and how much I loved her and just getting to be so close to my grandmother that I felt like it was a holy cleaning out of her underwear drawer. And how is it that you can make any letting go into, you know, acknowledging how much that person or whatever the loss is, how much you loved, how much it meant to you, and acknowledging that there's this huge change. And even acknowledging the wondering, how is it going to be in the future without her and then kind of bringing yourself to this moment? Now I can let go of her underwear.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. But it does require some trust that you're gonna be okay. That those memories, like you said, Dean, that that this physical thing is not attached to the space this person takes up in my heart and spirit and soul. It can be just stuff at some point, but not all stuff can just be stuff either. Right?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:Like, the recipes that your mother they're never gonna be just stuff.
Dean Sharpe MD [:No. And I'll never throw them away.
Sarah Peterson [:And you'll never throw them away.
Dean Sharpe MD [:I'll die and something will happen to them, but it won't be on my watch.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Exactly. So I tell people, consider what it would feel like to give away something that they're less emotionally attached to. I also ask people if they're keeping it out of fear or out of love. And I think that, you know, the fear piece goes back to savoring these memories and really believing that the things are attached to the memories. What are some other things you think people are afraid of
Marlis Beier, MD [:besides forgetting the person? Well, I think it's all the emotions that people are avoiding as they're going through the grief process. Does it mean you have to face into, you know, the regret or the guilt or yeah. No. I think part of the reason I can't get rid of my adopted son's stuff is I still need to forgive myself and forgive him for taking this lie.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Yeah. And just how painful that was.
Sarah Peterson [:So they're symbols.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Yeah. They are. Mhmm. I mean, it is a symbol of such a deep connection.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. They are symbols. And I was just sitting here asking myself, my god. What are you afraid of, Sarah? Whyvdo you still have old Jimmy's button down shirts and shoes that certainly my 15 year old's not gonna be interested in wearing? And I think I'm afraid I'm gonna regret giving it away. I'm gonna regret not seeing it there in the in the garage still. I don't know if that's a rational fear. Doesn't matter. But it's still there for me.
Sarah Peterson [:And I knew, okay, the baby walker, I was confident that I wasn't gonna be scared of not seeing that in the garage anymore. But I don't know. What do you think, Dean?
Dean Sharpe MD [:I have so many thoughts buzzing around in my head here.
Sarah Peterson [:You're like a connections puzzle. Right. How can I pluck them and put them together in groups of 4?
Dean Sharpe MD [:Good. Not that. Ultimately, I think Marlys was onto something because so often our grief with loved ones or people that we've loved is complicated by so many things beyond just the fact that we loved them. And I do think that there are times when there's unfinished business, and forget finished forgiveness work, and unfinished parts of the relationship, things that regrets because of some things that weren't said or whatever. That if we can bring if in our process, we can continue to work at being as conscious as we can about what is going on and what are the complexities of feeling. And then as Marla said, if there is something where really you do or did need to have that conversation, You can create a ritual space in nature or alongside a river or in front of a piece of paper where you write a letter, and you can say the things that you want to say to that person and get it off your chest and have sort of the belief that even if they don't hear it, but maybe they do, it's been said. It's been stated. And in that way, gradually work through the pieces that sometimes keep us stuck in moving forward to a relationship where we just have a, you know, a presence with the other person.
Marlis Beier, MD [:Facing it. What I'm becoming aware of as we talk is that I loved my dad. Of course, I love my dad. How can you not love your dad? And if I am willing to keep doing this work of facing into all of the difficult emotions of grief And even my friend who was such a putz, you know, I can transfer those relationships to one's more of peace and presence and less of complicated emotions. I think the biggest thing that we as humans do is deny the complexity of the relationship and the emotions that we have and that in the past.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that, obviously. One of them being, you know, your 5 days of bereavement leave doesn't give you enough time to kinda dive into that complexity. The discomfort of the supporters around you aren't confident most of it's not a matter of not being wanting or not being willing to be and hold pain for people, but they're just not confident in their ability to listen and work through that alongside you. I mean, this fear of what it means to look at all that stuff. And there's it does sometimes feel like an abyss of endless layers that can never actually get resolved. So what the hell is the point? You know?
Marlis Beier, MD [:And our culture simply is not conducive. I mean, who in our I mean, wow. We are so death denying, and we are so grief avoidant that we no longer have the fire circles where people just sit and listen to you tell your story and tell all the blah blah blah comes out.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Marlis Beier, MD [:I mean, we are so intent upon trying to make someone else feel better when the best thing you can do is just be quiet and let them talk.
Sarah Peterson [:Just be quiet and let them talk.
Dean Sharpe MD [:I think that another piece of the upstream work that if you are not currently in grief in a relationship because the relationship's still going great, I'm pretty clear that if we love anything as human beings, we're ultimately gonna grieve their loss. Either they're gonna die or leave us or we're gonna die and leave them, and that is the reality of our existence. And I'm not willing to choose to oh, I'm just not gonna love anymore because then I won't ever be hurt. Well, good luck with that. So there's a place where if you are going to love something and you're gonna love it fully, you have to practice it loving. It's gonna be like when it ends that you have to love the end of it in the same way that you love having it. Because if you're resisting the end of it, then you're withholding a little piece of your love in this moment, and you're not loving fully because you're protecting yourself from the ultimate loss. So what it does is it makes it so that you continue to be current in your relationships, and you continue to say the things that you need to say, and you continue to tell people that you love them, and you continue to ask for forgiveness, and you continue to forgive and you continue to be current so that whenever the end comes, you are loving it in this moment.
Dean Sharpe MD [:You're loving that person in this moment, and you're not withholding some to avoid future pain. And I think if we can have those conversations even in the beginning and throughout, it makes coming to the end of things not less grieving, but more conscious or aware. And just maybe can help us move more quickly through the really horrible dark pit.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And even if it's not more quickly, with hope. Yeah. Move through it with hope.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Thank you.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. You're welcome.
Dean Sharpe MD [:Thank you for that.
Sarah Peterson [:I love correcting people. It's so fun for me.
Dean Sharpe MD [:And you're so good.
Sarah Peterson [:At it. But we can move through it with hope because I think that it's really easy to lose hope. You know? Like I've said, I never would have believed so many of these things were possible for me because I really I'm I had a little hope because people around me helped me, and I had people to live for. And absent those things, I don't know where the hope would have come from. So to pause and set intention, whether that's because you have to fill out paperwork that's really terrible and painful to do, to use that as an exercise of your love in this experience, whether that's to turn the picture upside down or flip it over to do what's right for you in the moment, to express yourself fully, and to live into what is going to ultimately bring you comfort as you learn what your healing process might look like. I think that's the big takeaway for today to listen to yourself, not the other person. And if you are the other person, listen to the griever, not yourself talk. The griever is the expert on their grief, and and that's just that.
Sarah Peterson [:So thanks, you guys, for all of this today. Appreciate you. Appreciate you. Love you. Love you. Okay. Love you. Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss.
Sarah Peterson [:We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
