Will I Survive This? Uncertain Futures & Not Knowing How to Cope with Grief. -16

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Sarah Peterson [: 00:00:02

Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real, honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path, as well as my work with my nonprofit Clear Mourning. I'm often joined by two incredible guests, Dr. Marlis Beier and Dr. Dean Sharpe, both incredible people and physicians who've spent their lives caring for people and have supported me personally on my journey through grief. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:00:52

Let's walk through this journey together.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:00:57

Welcome back, everybody, to enduring grief. We are so excited to have our very special guest here today, and we're also excited to have you listening today. I am here with one of my very favorite people, Elizabeth Johnson. And, you know, when she and I met, it was during COVID, which sometimes feels like only a minute ago, but I was thinking about it this morning, Elizabeth, and we've been close for years now.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:16

It's so special.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:18

Thank you so much for being here.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:01:20

I'm honored to be here with you.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:21

It's very exciting because ever since, well, actually, before I met Elizabeth, people were telling me I needed to meet Elizabeth and talk to Elizabeth. And you should really hang out with Elizabeth was something I was hearing a lot. And then once I started the podcast, I kept hearing also that I needed to have Elizabeth on the podcast. And so a lot of things are coming together for us today.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:01:38

It's amazing to be here. And I remember early on when everyone kept saying to me, you need to meet Sarah. You need to meet Sarah. And we got on Zoom.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:44

On Zoom.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:01:45

During COVID, and we fell in love with each other and said, oh, here you are.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:01:48

Here you are. I love you. Immediately. Immediately. Okay. So the reason I'm having Elizabeth here is because she is deeply embedded into not only my grief journey, but her own grief journey and the journey of so many people through the grief experience, both anticipatory and post death. Elizabeth, tell us what you do.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:02:06

So I, cofounded an organization called the Peaceful Presence Project. We are established in 2019, and we work with individuals navigating serious and terminal illness and train individuals to serve as end of life doulas in their communities.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:02:24

Wow.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:02:25

In that work, inherently, is a lot of grief, kind of woven into experiences of both unanticipated as well as kind of the loss or the death and dying that comes from, you know, a a new diagnosis of some sort.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:02:38

Yeah. So, I mean, you're not in competition with hospice. You're in supplemental, ancillary, extra support level.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:02:44

Yes. We work collaboratively with hospice a lot. The recognition hospice is amazing, and there's a lot of hours of the day where hospice is not there. Stepping in and helping with a lot of the psychosocial, relational, logistical needs for people.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:02:58

That's amazing. And I think also, especially in our community, it's been revealed that you are filling a niche kind of like I'm trying to do as far as just even grief alone. Because if there's a community loss, you're one of the first line contacts even though that has nothing to do with death doula work or being at the bedside. But I think that's just sort of a big reveal of how empty our culture is for that type of support.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:03:19

Yes.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:03:20

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:03:21

Yeah. Definitely. Especially that unanticipated loss where there's just no preparation for it. It happens. Everything screeches to a halt, and people look around to each other like, what do we do next?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:03:30

I know. They must just, like, Google deaf in my town, and then, like, your name comes up, and my name comes up, and then we get those calls, and then we call each other. But I really do think that's just such a clear picture of how thirsty, at least, our community is for that type of support because I know that your mission is not to help people with traumatic loss, and yet you're some of the only people who are willing to do it. So thank you, for one. And two, I hope that we can talk a little bit about that today. So our episode today is gonna be focused on the tremendous mystery and angst related to grief.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:04:06

Well, tell us more about you, Elizabeth, which is really funny because on the outline for today's episode, I put EJ's story, Elizabeth Johnson's story, but not the whole story, which was not meant to be there. But we laughed about it.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:04:18

We laughed about it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:04:19

So I'm gonna welcome you to tell the whole story or part of your story or, you know, whatever you feel like we, as listeners, need to hear to connect.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:04:25

Yes. Well, I think connected to the formation of the peaceful presence project and kind of taking several steps back of what brought me to this work. I was pregnant in 2010 and had a really amazing, healthy pregnancy. I was living in Colorado at the time. You know, at thirty nine weeks, I was hiking at 9,000 feet and just very, very active, very healthy. I was working with both a nurse midwife as well as a, OBGYN doc and went into labor at forty weeks and a day and had a home birth. And about twenty six hours in the state of sheer exhaustion, went into a full my son was being born. We didn't know he was a boy or girl at that point. And he had a true knot in his umbilical cord.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:05:15

And so he was born heart beating, but pretty unconscious and not breathing very well. And so what was expected to be this welcoming and my healthy live baby into the world ended up being an emergency where the EMS busted through the front door. I was brought in an ambulance to the hospital, and they did all they could to try to resuscitate him. And there was just too much time where he was likely without oxygen. And so we were forced to sit with a really difficult question of, and now what? And so after multiple hours of having him on life support, the next early the next morning, took him off of life support and he died in my arms. Oh, Elizabeth. And it was just one of those experiences where everything in life seems to be going one direction.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:02

Mhmm.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:06:03

And suddenly, you find yourself in this absolutely different reality with no mental, emotional, psychic preparation.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:06:12

Right. In an instant.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:14

In an instant. Everything has changed. I'm so sorry.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:06:18

What a sweet guy. We didn't know I guess, we didn't know the sex. And so it was he's a boy, and we named him Metolius after the Metolius River.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:26

And Such a special place. Such a special name.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:06:28

Yeah. And so it was really I mean, that's the bit of my story I'll say now. That's really what catapulted me into a completely different world of and now what?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:06:40

Yeah. Well, outside of us both being incredibly funny and cool people, I think that's partially why people pushed us together was because we shared that experience of child loss and traumatic I mean, it's all traumatic, but that sudden, unanticipated loss of a child, which is just, I mean, just what is the word? Earth shattering, life taking? What could we possibly say?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:07:03

Eruption Of hell? Eruption of hell.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:07:05

Eruption of hell. Life cracking eruption of hell.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:07:07

That's perfect.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:07:08

So we share that.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:07:09

We share that. And it's a club nobody wants to be in, and yet here we are together in it. So we all wanna focus today's episode only on child loss, but I think that there are components of child loss that prevail through all types of grief. And maybe you have lost a child and can really understand this life cracking eruption of hell that we're talking about when that occurs. But I know that for me, Elizabeth, when that happened, the angst of the mystery of, like, am I gonna make it?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:07:37

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:07:37

Sometimes was and it wasn't about, like, I need to make it. I wanna make it. Let me keep living. It was really just, like, can I sustain this pain? It like, can you understand what I'm trying to say? It's kind of,

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:07:50

Yeah. I mean, I remember lying there just asking when will my heart stop beating? So the soul just not and it wasn't I want to take my life. It was just when can I stop being in this? And when will my system shut down? Because my system Right. Literally cannot handle this. That's what it felt like at that point.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:12

Yeah. Like, I must be on the brink of death because this has gotta be what it is. Mhmm. This level of terrible has to be what that means. Mhmm. And then you wake up and do it again.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:08:24

And again.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:25

And again. Yeah. And that's a whole other version of hell, especially early on there. Where it's just this realization of, oh, right. It is one foot in front of the other, and there is nothing else possible at this stage of things.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:08:40

What did you need? What do you think you needed at that time? Like, either from your people, your community, your home, like, what?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:08:47

Mhmm. Well, you know what? It's interesting. I, in a lot of ways, did not know what I needed because I had never had an experience like this that put me into this exceptionally splayed out on the ground level of vulnerability. And especially in our own culture, right, we're taught to be so, independent, to be able to do it by ourselves, to be able to figure out the pieces, to be able to make it all work. And this was a scenario where there was nothing to be it was splayed out. I'm lying here in my deepest vulnerability, and what can fill in around this? It can make anything slightly different. And so I think early on, I realized I needed to be surrounded by people who had the capacity to simply sit next to me. Yeah. It's so amazing. Do nothing beyond that.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:09:38

I know.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:09:39

Just be there. Just be there. People who didn't need to come in and say, I'm gonna figure this out for you. Or have you eaten today? I know I remember you would talk a lot about that. Have you eaten? You need to eat. You need to drink. I was like, I need people who can sit here and let me be at the bottom of the bottom of the bottom and not ask me to be anywhere else but right now.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:09:59

Right here.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:00

Yeah. Absolutely.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:10:02

Because that's all I could do. I mean, that's all you could do. Mhmm. And to ask for the griever to do more is so I mean, I'm gonna use the word unfair to everybody.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:10

Yeah. Everybody. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:11

And if you could go back and, like, tell yourself something,

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:10:15

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:15

During those darkest days, what would you tell yourself knowing what you know today?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:10:19

That there is this brilliant sort of organic intelligence to our systems that we we do not know what we are capable of, and there is something else that moves through us that allows us to grow into something else. That is so surprising.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:10:39

That's true. But how willing would you say you have to be as a soul searcher? You can't just sit back and not be willing and let that occur. Right? Like, as the griever, you must show up.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:10:49

You have to show up to the grief. You know, I think a lot of times people talk about grief as this passive thing that kinda moves through us, and I think there's something that's true about that. Right? Like, we get composted and broken down, and these things sort of tear us apart and build us back up. And I think that's the part that's sort of this, organic intelligence to it that we kinda have to get out of the way, Yeah. For, and also you have to show up for it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:11:10

So what did it mean for you to show up? How did you show up?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:11:10

I mean, in the beginning, I just wanna acknowledge for listeners especially, like, in the beginning, there is no deciphering between showing up, not showing up, compartmentalizing this organic thing that Elizabeth is, like, it's just occurring. And we're not really talking about that particular phase because I think that particular phase is survival alone and really, truly making it to the next breath. So let's assume you get out of that phase. This all sounds very clinical. I don't mean for it too. But if you're grieving, you know what I'm talking about, and I think we here know what we're talking about. So once you are through the holy shit, I am making it to my next breath that I I can move past that goal. What did it mean for you to show up to your grief?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:11:50

Well, it's interesting. It didn't happen immediately. I, after my son died, we actually packed up our bags and went and traveled for five months or so. We didn't know what else to do. And I realized in that, it was grappling for a reality that made sense to me. And I felt like there was movement was the thing that made most sense at that point, but yet it wasn't sufficient. I got back home, and I was offered a job in India.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:16

And I went and guided an 18 20 one year olds in India. And I did that because it was movement, and I didn't know what else to do. And I had all of this mothering sort of energy that needed to be directed somewhere. And so I did it by going to India and taking care of eighteen to twenty year olds that had no idea what was going on.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:12:35

Wow.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:36

And then finally, after all of that, my body gave out. My back went out. I was bed-bound for about three to four months.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:12:44

I oh, good. Alone with your thoughts in bed?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:46

Alone with my thoughts in bed.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:12:48

And in pain?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:12:49

At my parents' house.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:12:50

Oh, perfect. And I love your mother. I don't know your dad, but I love your but still. But still. Welcome to Hell. No. Just kidding. Marguerite.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:13:01

It was a version of Hell.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:13:03

Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:13:04

And it was that moment where it was like, okay. There is something here that fundamentally cannot be bypassed. Through movement, through constantly being on the go, by distracting yourself, by doing the things that feel sort of surfacey good. That was all the only thing I knew how to do at that moment. The body does not lie. Right. And I literally was physically forced to stop.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:13:31

And in that moment, I spending hours of lying in bed, it was this question of, like, okay. And now what? Yeah. And one of the biggest things I think that kept emerging for me, the question of, how do I not be a victim in this?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:13:46

You could spend some time really thinking about that because it is the ultimate feeling of victimhood. Like, you have survived the ultimate loss, makes you the ultimate victim. Mhmm. But you decided, no. That wasn't gonna be the end of the story. That's tough. Was it tough?

Sarah Petersonn [: 00:14:00

No. It actually, it wasn't. For me, it felt like I do not identify with being a victim here.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:14:08

Did it require forgiveness of something, someone?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:10

Absolutely. Big forgiveness. Big forgiveness of myself, of all of the other people involved in all of the process of birthing and the death and afterwards. So many moments of looking back and saying if that would have been different. If only. Only. If only.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:27

But lying there for hours and hours and hours, and I felt like I kinda have holding this basket. And I was like, okay. If I put all of these different pieces of the experience in the basket, and I kinda mix it all up, what's fundamentally here? And it was this understanding of, like, I don't want to be stuck in this story of saying, this happened to me. I'm a victim. And there's nothing from here. There's no other possibility that might emerge from this. It takes courage, girl.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:14:55

It takes something.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:14:56

It takes something. Yeah. You're right. Because, also, I mean, I think that I probably had a similar dawning of the moment and had to actively decide that my life was not over. And for me, that also meant setting down the victim, which I do pick back up. I know I do. But also feeling very much like I had no other choice, so it wasn't this yes.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:15:17

I had to actively choose to continue to live, and that also was not much of a choice because I felt like I had to. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Absolutely. Like Yeah. I wasn't like, or I can lie here in bed all day. That never was actually on the table. I mean, outside of back injuries and that sort of thing, like, giving up completely, I don't know.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:15:34

It just never was on the table despite feeling so pulled toward giving up completely.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:15:40

Feels like, in many ways, the easier thing to do. Yet it's not a possibility. Or was it in our cases, it was not a possibility.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:15:48

Right. And so for the grievers listening, I think it might be valuable to hear, like, you might wanna give up completely and we recognize that, but that doesn't mean, a, you're choosing to or that it's even an actual choice on the table. It's a really normal reaction to something terrible happening. Wondering if you can go on because that's the ultimate question. Whether we're talking about releasing ourselves from being a victim, whether we're talking about taking the next breath, like, ultimately answering the question for yourself, can I keep going? And you can. Because guess what, guys? You are.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:16:18

And you know what? It was I stumbled upon Dan Siegel's work. He talks about the faces approach, where when they study organisms in the natural environment, and they're exposed to chaos or some really intense level of struggle, they they note that the organism, through that exposure, typically becomes more FACE's approach, flexible, adaptive, cohesive, energetic, and stable. And I remember reading that and thinking, that's a version of what's happening here. Like, that is the superpower that I am slowly developing by stopping and really feeling what is happening right here. How am I being transformed by this in some way? And in some ways, based on choices I make, in some ways, just because a really messed up thing happened.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:17:13

Yeah. And I can't help but think that in there, you could probably find resistance because it's not like we can turn this into a positive. That's not what we're saying, guys. And yet, there is more opportunity through this process to grow and learn and care for yourself in new ways. Mhmm. And that doesn't mean that what has happened is okay, and now look at what I've done with my loss. Lucky me. Right.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:17:35

No. Look at my transformation now.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:17:38

Exactly.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:17:38

This is not like the butterfly scenario that we might have as a culture come to be familiar with. Right. This is I have been given a shithole thing, and now what? Okay. So I am going to allow it to integrate, essentially into who I become.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:17:54

And the question of what am I reaching for?

Sarah Peterson [: 00:17:56

Could you answer that in those days? Could you answer it? What you were reaching for?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:18:00

No. No. I look over my shoulder sometimes and think, oh, right. Yeah. In that moment, you reach for, I want to start feeling into the emerging superpowers around this experience versus focusing just on, I just don't want this to be true. I just don't want this to be true. I don't want this to be true.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:18:21

And was that vulnerable feeling to set down the I just don't want this to be true? Mhmm.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:18:25

Yeah. And I think part of it, that grief experience when you start to feel yourself moving in a direction that actually kinda feels good, there's that shape.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:18:35

Totally. That sense of It's resistance. Like, I'm doing this wrong. I'm doing this. Not supposed to feel good.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:18:41

Yeah. And whatever I'm grieving, the person, the experience, or whatever will feel farther away. Yeah. And somehow, I am not staying true.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:18:49

Oh, gosh. That's true, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:18:51

And so if we can tell you guys that it's actually the opposite. It's actually the opposite. And now, I don't know if you can agree with this. I bet you can. But on some of the more glorious days of life these days is when I feel the closest to Marley. Yeah. Absolutely. Because the deep devastation, which is mandatory, it's part of it, the angst, the that's what we're here talking about, the darkness.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:19:14

You gotta do it, and I think that it is compounded by the lack of connection with the other because you are so consumed by the darkness Mhmm. And the anxiety Yeah. Of can I go on? Yeah. So we could tell our grievers. We could encourage our grievers to pause and say, what am I reaching for? And that could be really big. Maybe your own podcast. That could be really simple. Maybe a shower.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:19:37

Mhmm.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:19:38

But that's movement Yeah. In a direction other than staying put.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:19:41

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:19:41

Sarah Peterson [: 00:19:42

Oh, yeah. And, I mean, and early on, that question of what am I reaching for, it was a cup of tea.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:19:47

A cup of tea.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:19:48

It was picking up the phone and calling that dear friend who had left 20 messages, and I finally realized that conversation will actually do me some good.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:19:57

Yeah. So you're allowed to change what you're reaching for?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:20:00

Absolutely.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:20:01

Yeah. But I think having your eye on something in the future, whether that's ten minutes from now or a day or a year from now, helps us, our system, our neurology, understand ourselves, our organism understand that we can do this, that it is temporary. Darkest of times are temporary, as are the most joyous times. Right. Yeah. Temporary.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:20:22

Yeah. This too shall pass.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:20:24

Well, when I think of the book, The Grieving Brain.

She's so smart. She's so smart. And the brain being this predictive tool that's its job is to think out far enough into the future to keep us safe, especially when these unanticipated losses happening happen, there's this cleaving of that predictive capability. Everything sort of becomes like this flat line in front of us. And so I think the the ability, once we can get there, to say, even if it's ten minutes out, it's giving the brain this ability to be like, we'll be okay, because I can see that thing out there in front of us. Absolutely. It's five seconds or ten minutes or an hour out. The brain starts to do the building block, job that it does to start to re message to the system we actually are okay.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:21:14

And we know what's happening.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:21:16

We do, for the most part, know what's coming toward us. And I'll hear grievers often talk about, like, it's just so weird. I can only watch this one TV show. I'm like, duh. Because you know how it ends.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:21:26

Yeah. Right.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:21:27

You can't handle another surprise. So you spend an enormous effort avoiding surprises and saying, I don't know what's in the future is, like, the ultimate of surprise. Right. Right? And can I make it?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:21:38

Right. Well, and just that I remember for me, it was always, wait. If this can happen in life Anything can. What else will happen? Right? What are the million other shoes that will drop? And so I think there's a part of just needing to stay in the known in order to reestablish that sense of some sense of sanity.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:21:56

You're exactly right, Elizabeth. I tell people that all the time. Like, this anxiety is mystery plus fear, and so if we can solve some of the mysteries, what do I know? What do I know? Mhmm. It can be very simple.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:22:08

I know that I'm supported by the chair I'm sitting on.

That if I'm thirsty, then I have water.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:22:12

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:22:12

And if I have to use the bathroom, I have one. I mean, we can start with the basics because, like you said, the neurology of our system wants to understand what's happening. Yeah. What about humor? Did humor ever play a part in your grief process as we laugh?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:22:26

Humor is was so necessary. Yeah. I remember early on, shortly after I gave birth, I then had a hematoma in the pelvic region of my body. Had to go back into the emergency room for another hospital for another three days. And my dear sister came to be with me for a month or so. And we would find ourselves in these situations where, I mean, she would be putting lotions and things on my body in places where nobody else should be putting things on my body.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:22:56

And we would just look at each other and How can this be? How can this be the thing that we are doing right now? And erupt in some level of whatever laughter was possible at that moment because it was so absurd. I mean, there's that humor and the absurdity,

Sarah Peterson [: 00:23:13

What you find yourself in in that moment?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:23:13

That was so, so, so necessary. And, also, it had to be a thing where I had to initiate the laugh. Right. And then she followed me in that laugh.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:23:25

Mhmm. Good clarification there. Because I think it's very important to delineate between what has happened is not funny, and somehow you are funny right now. There's a very big difference there.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:23:32

Absolutely.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:23:33

And I think you have to be able to laugh, one, because you're human, and this is how we're gonna get through these incredibly difficult times. Also, because I think that it is easy for our whole spirit to forget that that's within us Yeah. Still and to turn to it and say, there you are, old friend. You cracked a smile. You laughed. You're not dead in that way.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:23:51

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:23:52

Yeah. I also found humor was almost sort of like the snow globe effect for me, where things would just start feeling so static, and, like, I was so uncomfortable. And even a slight giggle that kinda sometimes could transform into a bigger laugh felt like a message to my system, like, exactly what you just said. We're gonna be okay. There's something happening here that's really familiar. Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:24:14

There you are. There you are, old friend. Mhmm. Okay. So now when people come to you for help Mhmm. I can only guess that you lean on your own experience to help guide them.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:24:24

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:24:24

What are the things you offer? Like, how do you sit I understand too, like, you're an incredibly skilled witness to people suffering, so I don't ever picture you jamming your ideas or the whole story down their throat. However, they are turning to for support.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:24:40

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:24:41

If we are in a capacity of more than friend, they're coming to us as professionals. You know, there is sort of this expectation that we do more than witness. What does that look like for you?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:24:52

Well, first of all, I wanna say what you were alluding to there. I never sit with somebody and say, I'm here with you because I have a story too. Right? That that's very much in the background. I feel like to center another story is a huge part of coming alongside of, right, of never making it. I can be there because I understand.

Sarah Petersonn [: 00:25:12

Yeah.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:25:12

But I don't talk about my experience unless it's you know, unless I'm asked.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:16

Yeah. So people expect us to do more than witness.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:20

Mhmm. What does it look like for you?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:25:22

You know, I remember early on, I came across a quote or information about the work of James Hillman, the American psychologist. And I remember he would always say, you know, most issues that we confront in life are not meant for resolution.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:25:38

Yeah. They're meant for these people with their words and their quotes and their notions. I don't like that one bit. Not meant for resolution. I wanna fix this. There has to be an endpoint.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:25:49

Right. And so people come and say, give me the solution. And I remind them, James Hillman has taught me, most issues are not meant for resolution. They're meant for spaciousness. And how do we become spacious enough in both ourselves or for ourselves, or as we are with another to really see what is there. And so I think most people I sit with are oftentimes in scenarios where the people around them are just really wanting them to get better.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:17

Yeah. For sure.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:26:18

Just wanting this to be different, whether it's taking the meds, or doing enough therapy, or

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:26

I know. My favorite is when they're like, well, I feel like I'm handling things okay, but all my friends said I need a grief counselor, so I'm here today. Like, what do they expect me to do? Right. Bring back their person. Yeah. Exactly. Friend. Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:40

Mhmm. Yeah. Can't be done.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:26:42

Can't be done.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:26:43

But what can we do?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:26:44

So, you know, I think that for those of us who are in the depths of grief, I think it's really helpful to break things down into bite sized pieces. And I feel like that's a lot of what my work with people is about, is just saying, okay. We've got this massive, overwhelming, huge, mystery filled tragedy or loss in front of us. What aspects are we gonna actually be able to kinda hold in our two palms today and look at? And so it's almost this a little bit of a behind the scenes dissection. That I feel like that's one of my roles is to kind of take to maybe reach out and take a couple different pieces of what they're going through and hold it in our palms and say, what is possible today? Yeah. And what is possible might be, you know, I took a shower. I made my child lunch, and I'm here with you. And I think people oftentimes feel like for months and months and months, that's the only thing that's possible.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:27:42

And, really, there is this kind of this evolution, this progression that's happening that when you are in it, it is so difficult to see. You can't see it. You can't see it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:27:49

You really can't. It's yeah. Because you are also probably feeding yourself or getting dressed or picking up something around your house. Like, the likelihood that you are truly doing only those seemingly benign things is not true.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:28:03

Right. And so I think having people be an active witness in that process and say, this is the progression that's happening. Look at you, is a huge part of why it is so helpful to reach out to those more neutral, skillful humans that can really be with us and say, you know what? It is changing, and look what's different. Look. So it's look what's different today.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:28:25

Yeah. And that is I mean, Marlis hates this question because she's like, I have no regrets, and I do everything that I need to do, and it was all meant to be a part of my learning. Okay. Well, for me, asking the question in my life I asked you, which was what would you tell yourself that day, is almost always an immediate reveal of all this progress that we're talking about. And I use the word progress loosely because what are we progressing? But this movement, this shift, this learning to be with, if you can say, well, you know, I would tell myself that you are gonna go back to work, that you are going to laugh again, and that you are going to continue to make new friends, for example. Right? All of that is me acknowledging that stuff has happened. Right? That you're not gonna die. Okay.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:29:07

Wow. That's a really big reveal at certain points in this. So that's how I get people to notice in themselves what they're actually doing.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:29:17

Right. Yeah. And I think too, everyone needs sometimes, they're very similar things in grief, and oftentimes, they're very different things. And so I think, you know, it's another thing is the question you asked me, what did you need in those early days? I didn't know, but I did need somebody to help me tease that out. Yeah. Absolutely. Right? That trusted person that just helped me to sort of to re see the core building blocks that actually were there. And based on that, what did I need to start to kind of build out blocks beyond that? And so I think that's another core thing that I, you know, come alongside of, and we start to look at what are those building blocks and what's missing, and what do you need to add. And oftentimes, it's we lack the preparation in friendships or relationships to even know what it looks like to ask for people to be there with us around these sorts of experiences.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:30:06

That's true. And I think that people can be really surprised by who it is that's gonna show up. I I know I certainly was, and you and I have done that workshop around the grief ring theory where people are going, oh, it isn't actually the person I thought it would be at the very center closest to me. Yes. Mother, father, sister, brother, husband, wife, whatever, that you would assume based on cultural roles that they would be the person, but maybe they're not. And that doesn't mean it's love lost. It just means that there's a role to fill. Right.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:30:32

And you, as the griever, could be really surprised by who's willing and able to step up and do that with you.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:30:37

Exactly. And so having somebody assist you in saying, who stands in those concentric circles around you? Who is closest? Who is able to meet the needs that exist right now that are needs that you've actually never fully had before. Right. Because we cannot do this alone. We cannot do this fully by ourselves. And there's days where you are in bed and you say, I will never let anybody else close to me. I don't want anybody to ever come in this bedroom because this is too much. And we are these beings that that do fundamentally need one another.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:31:06

And so when we're ready to open that that door and walk out, it's like, who am I gonna pull close?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:31:11

Yeah. Who's gonna be there? Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:31:13

You're allowed to decide. I think as grievers too, like, in the beginning, especially, we're just sort of thrusted into our normal social people who love us and whatever. But as time marches on and you feel like you can get enough footing to think and be clear about who you want on the other side of the door, take charge. Mhmm. Say who. It's hard Yeah. And it's okay. Because it's your life.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:31:33

This is your process. This is you leaning in like we started this episode talking about. What did you do to get to know it so that you weren't stuck in it? That's part of it.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:31:42

Yeah. And sometimes feelings will be hurt. People will say, why am I not the one that's frequently spending time with you? If there's a real reorientation of sort of that, we kinda called, like, the social ecosystem map Of who's allowed to be closest. But you, as Griever, absolutely have a right to rework that, to redefine that, to meet, griever, absolutely have a right to rework that, to redefine that, to meet, as closely as you can, the needs that are present at that wherever you find yourself.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:32:07

I agree. And if you hurt somebody's feelings out there, griever, like, just let that go for now. Like, the you can deal with that later in a year or two years or five years or never, but it's not an urgent situation.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:32:18

No.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:32:19

So don't let it be.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:32:20

And brilliant good friends will come around. And then understand.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:32:24

They'll understand. Absolutely.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:32:27

Do you think there's a difference, Elizabeth, in the grief between, like, unanticipated loss and the ones where people are, you know, sick and then they die?

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:32:34

I do.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:32:35

What's the biggest difference? I'm thinking about doing a whole episode on that.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:32:39

Yeah. I what is the biggest difference? I mean, honestly, I think a lot of it is what the Grieving Brain book talks about. When the brain can see a path before it, and it says, okay, these variables are going to shift. I know these things will become different. And, of course, nothing prepares us for death. You could be caregiving your husband who has dementia, and it's a ten year process. You know eventually he's gonna die from this, and you have a lot of time to prepare. When that death happens, you're still gonna be, woah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:33:11

Woah. This was actually not what I expected. Yeah. But there's a process that gives the brain the time to prepare in a different way. These unanticipated sort of cleaving deaths. One minute's one thing, the next minute's another. I think that there's a system rebuild that has to happen in a different way, where it's almost obliteration of all those predictive presencing tools that all of a sudden are just sort of, like, splayed out and not there. And from that point, we kinda have to walk back into our lives, reimagining what's possible in a very, very different way.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:33:45

Yeah. Takes a lot of work. Takes a lot of energy.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:33:49

It really does take so much energy. And I hope that if you find yourself in that demanding space of all that energy, you can hear both Elizabeth and me right now say, there is a spectrum. You can move and continue to move on the spectrum toward integration of living your most meaningful life in this actual reality. I don't know. Yeah. But it does take effort. It does. It also takes effort to stay stuck.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:34:12

In some ways, that's an interesting thing to say. Yeah. I've been feeling into that lately is what is the energy it takes to stay stuck? Because like I started out saying earlier, there is this inherent organic intelligence within the system that wants to rebuild and reboost and realign and find that, you know, kind of that that place of of allostasis. You know? Like, the normal state, something happens, and then what happens after that transition where things kind of the adaptability, the reorientation around a new reality. Our system knows exactly how to do that. Mhmm. When we reject and push against and hold into the static place of no no no no no no no, it almost uses more energy to attempt to stay there than to sort of I mean, I I do not like the word surrender. I feel like we've got all of these,

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:01

Right. Authenticity, surrender, vulnerability. Narcissist.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:35:07

Exactly.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:08

There's some there's some words. Yeah. Those all get us to all work together.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:35:10

True.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:11

But that you have that surrender, the act of sort of just like, here I go. This is it. What is here? Oh, that's scary.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:19

I wish I could remember the I have to suspect that there was maybe, like, a moment where that happened for the first time where I stopped saying, no. This didn't happen. And Yeah. There was a piece of that comfort in saying, if I just keep saying this didn't happen, maybe it didn't. Also, like, I remember when people were coming for the funeral going, wait. What? They're actually coming? That means this happened.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:44

Holy crap. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:46

No. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. There is such a monumental shift, I think, when we set that part down. And I think that part, especially with unanticipated loss, is it's gotta happen. Like, we have to say no. No.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:35:59

No. No. No. Because to immediately move to, well, this terrible thing has occurred is just unnatural too.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:36:05

Right. Yeah. And then when that really subtle tipping point happens and you go to this place of, oh, this actually maybe is a thing. Uh-huh. I found when I finally was able to arrive there, it felt absurdly, but truly liberating.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:36:21

Yeah. I can see that. And it's kind of like people who are afraid to do their advance directives, which you guys heard about on the last episode, that they think that if they do that, then death will come sooner. It's like the grief doesn't mean less, mean more, get harder because we've accepted that this has actually occurred.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:36:36

Exactly. It's just part of the process. Yeah.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:36:39

I think there's fear around what it means to accept.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:36:42

Mhmm.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:36:42

But that's a story.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:36:45

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Well alright. And we're looped back. We're hooked back into what we just want to be true. And to unhook from that puts us into this place that feels, I think, wildly undefined. And that's the place that feels really scary and overwhelming, and also takes us in in a way where if we let it take us, whatever that looks like for us on an individual basis, it actually can take us to a place that is something more than, I think, could ever imagine for ourselves.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:37:17

Yeah. I agree. And it's, again, an active choice and sometimes the only choice equally. You must accept what's occurred. Accept, I use loosely. I should say it if I want. Acknowledge.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:37:28

Acknowledge.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:37:30

Yeah. I don't know. I guess accept. And I guess accept doesn't have to mean I'm okay with it, but that I believe it. You have to believe what has occurred. There we go. There you go.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:37:39

Yeah. We have to believe it.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:37:40

Yeah. Because it is unbelievable.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:37:42

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I mean. When you can believe what has occurred, you feel a liberation into a different thing. And liberation is a weird world word to use there because it feels like, hallelujah. I'm free. I'm free. This is the thing that, you know, that above and beyond anything else, I want this to be Woo hoo.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:38:04

I believe it. My life is terrible and I believe it. Hallelujah. Now I know.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:38:16

But it feels like liberation around, we are hooked into this thing that's no longer true. And to let that go, you start to live fully into what is what is true.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:38:28

That's all we get, folks, is to living fully into what is true. And it ain't easy because what is true is often not what we want to be true.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:38:35

More often than not. Yeah. I think more often than not, that's where most of us have to live.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:38:39

Well, in our last couple minutes, Elizabeth, before we got started, you had some things that I know you wanted to share about just the disenfranchisement of the grief process. And what would be some, like, takeaways around that for people just in Clear Mourning's mission is to shift the culture of grief, and that's exactly what you're talking about. So go there again. Yeah. We have we have a few more minutes. Okay.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:38:57

Yeah. I was reflecting on the fact that, as an example, child loss is real form of it's oftentimes referred to as disenfranchised grief. Those places that are we do not feel comfortable publicly acknowledging or they're not socially sanctioned, where we feel like we, as a culture, as a people, can talk about these things. And I think child loss is one of those things that is so scary to us. Yeah. Because it's supposed to go that you get pregnant and someone's born, and you live a life, and then you die. And when the death process occurs so close to birth, it sort of erupts our idea of the right order of things. And so for me, I found that people were just really, really scared to talk about my loss.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:39:43

It was really isolating, and I made me think about all of the other forms of loss that we are just so uncomfortable lingering in. Right? Death by suicide, death by addiction, pet loss. Right? The losses that we feel like we have to hold close and we can't talk about because nobody else will actually meet us there.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:40:03

Yeah. Or even, like, my 96 year old mother died after years of dementia. I have no right to be sad. Right. So I'm not gonna talk about it.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:40:12

It's not that bad.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:40:13

It's not that bad because I knew I was coming, and she was sick, and she is, you know, alleviated in her suffering. So I have no right. Right.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:40:20

Yeah. Ugh. You have a right. You have a right.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:40:22

You But yet, again and I come back to the Kobe Bryant thing because I just think we can all remember it of, like, yet again, we all have permission to grieve somebody we've never met because guess what, guys? We're all doing it. So if we all do it, then it's okay. So can we just start all doing it? Right. Talking about the thing that's not so great. Yep.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:40:40

Yep. Yeah. And talk about those things that really fundamentally scare us. Yeah. Right? And so I feel like that was so much of what got me into the work that I do today, is this, you know, wishing for others an experience of care by the people around them that I, in many ways, didn't find, where I felt silenced and shamed, and meant to not speak clearly and truthfully about my loss experience. And so what does it look like for all of us to feel like, you know, a commitment to building up those base tools, to say, I walk around this world wanting to be available to people when my heart is broken.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:41:21

And you can do that as a supporter, not even in a supportive role right now, but knowing someday you will be, you can do it. And well, I interviewed Brennan Wood, who's the executive director of the Dougy Center, and she's talked about grief informed care. And that's what we're talking about. Like, how can we become grief informed? Because guess what? We're all gonna have it. Yeah. Either you or them is gonna go. Right.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:41:40

Yeah. So Yeah. Let's do it. Oh, Elizabeth. Thanks for talking about really hard things that scare everybody and make everybody uncomfortable with me today.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:41:48

I would not rather have this conversation with other than anyone but you.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:41:51

Well, me too. Thank you. Because we are not scared, and we are not uncomfortable. And we've been able to gaze into each other's eyes this entire episode. So thank you so much for being here.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:41:59

It's been amazing. Thank you.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:42:02

Thanks, listeners.

Sarah Peterson [: 00:42:05

Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve.

Elizabeth Johnson [: 00:42:33

You have

Sarah Peterson [: 00:42:33

the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.